My wife has a 2002 Altmia SE 3.5 , 34000 miles, fully loaded, paid 30K, I mean when we bought it she got every option down to the mats! Now were looking to buy a different car! We own the car outright. Were looking to get around $14500-15000 for it. The dealer offered us $9000:sad:

This is what I know.... She is looking at the BMW 328XI the price with options came out to $43350.00. I got the salesmen down to $41530 for the lease price. I know the residual value after 36 months is .67. No money down only taxes,tags,security dep and title costs around $3400 to drive it away. The price would be $515 a month. With $3000 down and the $3400 total of $6400 brings down the monthly payment to $445. I think I would keep the 3K in the bank anyway.

What are some other way to get the payment lower? A friend of mine said he can PLAY WITH THE NUMBERS...What advice do any of you have for me?????
Thanks.....Marc

For that price you can get an Infiniti M35, and for $6k less you can get an Infiniti G35X. Both will be much more reliable. I've owned a 540, a 745i, and now a G35, there is no way I'll waste my money on a BMW that will be back at the dealer for repairs/glitches every few months. The # you can play with is your MONEY FACTOR and RESIDUAL VALUE, at .67 residual is already good, Infiniti is comparable, so now the question is what money factor are they giving you, this is essentially the APR of the lease loan.
That all said, look at the 2007 G35X, its all wheel drive, 3.5 liter, has more room all around including reclining rear seats, and is much more reliable, and at 6-7k less!
G35X - 306hp, 268torque - 0-60 5.2sec
328iX - 230hp, 200torque - 0-60 7.1sec

http://www.infiniti.com/img/g_sedan/photos/exterior_photos/gs_wallpaper_ext_04.jpg

Tell the salesman you want to deal with the sales manager[the salesman will still get his commission.] When the manager goes to the computer screen to work the payment tell him you want to watch what he does. In your payment I am sure he has insurances[flat tire insurance, payment insurance and a few others that you will never use but he will make a higher commision hiding these in the payment.] Tell him you want to watch him take these payments out. If he says they are out make him show you. Usually with a lease there is less commision for the salesman, so they add these insurances in to pad their commission. I just went through this with my wife's car, an A4. You might want to demo one, my wife demoed BMW's and Audi's for over a month and the A4 came out on top. Payment was not an issue. Remember everything out! PM me if you have any other questions and let me know how you make out.

lease = rent you pay all that money then when lease is up you can buy it for more that it would have cost you to just get a loan in the first place. A friend of mine did this for there first car and when it was up they wanted the equivilant of full retail if they would have added the payments plus the buy out. Just buy it or keep the current car till you sell it or it dies.

Add the number of payments and the buy out price and see what it will cost you in the end. Leases are great if you never plan on owning the car or you use it for a write off. Kinda like living in an apt or buying a house. when your done with the apt. if your lucky you get a thank you from the landloard. When your done with the house you sell it and may realise a profit or at least some of your investment back. Shop the internet for the same car with no trade. Get your prices and see how you'd fair selling the Nissan. even at 9k i'd bet you'd be better off. 515 per mo 36 mo=18540.00 ask them what it will cost you to keep the car when the lease is up? I bet someone will sell you that car for 38,000 no trade. so 38000 less 13000 for nissan u sell it =25000.
What would that cost you a month. I may be way off but leases are not for your bennifit. Its a good deal for the dealer.

My wife has a 2002 Altmia SE 3.5 , 34000 miles, fully loaded, paid 30K, I mean when we bought it she got every option down to the mats! Well now she wants a new car! We own the car outright. Were looking to get around $14500-15000 for it. The dealer offered us $9000:sad:

This is what I know.... She is looking at the BMW 328XI the price with options came out to $43350.00. I got the salesmen down to $41530 for the lease price. I know the residual value after 36 months is .67. No money down only taxes,tags,security dep and title costs around $3400 to drive it away. The price would be $515 a month. With $3000 down and the $3400 total of $6400 brings down the monthly payment to $445. I think I would keep the 3K in the bank anyway.

What are some other way to get the payment lower? A friend of mine said he can PLAY WITH THE NUMBERS...What advice do any of you have for me?????
Thanks.....Marc
I am VERY familiar with leases, was an F&I Manager , and salesman with Mercedes Benz for 5 years.

Here are some questions:
1. How many miles a year will she drive? Looks like less than 10K per year based on the Nissan.

2. What was his Money Factor, that translates into intrest rate.

The residual is really good. That .67 means you are only paying for 33% of the car over the term of the lease. Leasing is a GREAT option for some and a HORRIBLE option for others. You are essentially renting a car for the term of the lease. Has pro's and con's. I'll be happy to go over this in more detail...just ask more specific questions.

UT

as far as the "how a lease works" part, you pay six grand up front plus $445/month for the priveledge of driving it for three years. At that point you've given them $19020 including your 3k down.

Then at the end of the term, you give it back (and get nothing) or pay .67 of $41530 ($27825, plus you have to pay sales tax [$1740 here in Illinois]again...) for the priveledge of buying your own used car, and make payments on it for a few more years. At 6.75% and no more cash down, that would be $583 / month for 5 more years to keep your 3 year old used car.

At the end of that, you will have made payments over eight full years totalling $54,000.

Oh yea, what do they charge you extra if you put more than 10k miles per year on it, or for excess wear and tear?

in case you can't tell, I don't like leases much...

lease = rent you pay all that money then when lease is up you can buy it for more that it would have cost you to just get a loan in the first place. A friend of mine did this for there first car and when it was up they wanted the equivilant of full retail if they would have added the payments plus the buy out. Just buy it or keep the current car till you sell it or it dies.

Add the number of payments and the buy out price and see what it will cost you in the end. Leases are great if you never plan on owning the car or you use it for a write off. Kinda like living in an apt or buying a house. when your done with the apt. if your lucky you get a thank you from the landloard. When your done with the house you sell it and may realise a profit or at least some of your investment back. Shop the internet for the same car with no trade. Get your prices and see how you'd fair selling the Nissan. even at 9k i'd bet you'd be better off. 515 per mo 36 mo=18540.00 ask them what it will cost you to keep the car when the lease is up? I bet someone will sell you that car for 38,000 no trade. so 38000 less 13000 for nissan u sell it =25000.
What would that cost you a month. I may be way off but leases are not for your bennifit. Its a good deal for the dealer.

Actually you're wrong. The price is the price and the residual is non negotiable. Example:

50,000 dollar car with a 50% residual leased for three years. At the end of three years the residual is 25,000. That is what you have the option to buy the car for, possibly, but rarely, less.

Lets say the value of the car is only 20,000...you would not want to buy it because the price would still be 25,000. NOW, if the value of the car had not depreciated that much and the value of the car is 28,000 you still only have to pay 25, 000 for the car.

So...no, once the residual is determined is is done...good or bad.

I have seen it go both ways. I leased a Toyota Tundra for three years...at the end of the lease the residual was 17,500....the retail value of the truck was 22, 500....I sold it for 22, 500 and paid off the 17, 500 residual and pocketed 5K.

You may be speaking of a closed end lease which are now illegal, that was when the residual could be readjusted at the end of the lease.

It is usually never good to buy your lease, like Jim Said...sometimes it works out ok, but not often.

Leasing has a bad name because bad F and I guys put people in leases that aren't right for leases. Leasing is GREAT ...if it fits what YOU want.

I leased for almost 10 years...now I buy, because leasing doesn't work as well as it did previously due to lifestyle changes.

Leasing is not necessarily bad...just confusing and bad F and I guys prey upon that.

I'll be happy to answer any questions anyone has...I have written thousands of leases they were 60% of our business and ERY common in High End Luxury dealerships because the Luxury cars have great residuals. Domestic cars have HORRIBLE residuals.

You can save money , if you choose to lease, by making sure the miles are right for your driving habits. You can do 10, 12, 15, or 18K per year. You want to allow for a little extra becuase it is cheaper to buy the miles up front than pay the penalty on the back.

You must service the car according to schedule, and maintain it. If you tear it up and don't repair it..you will be charged for excessive wear...but that is no different than trading in a car..you don't take care of the car buy or lease...and the value decreases.

Similairly...if you own, or finance a car, and mile it up and have excessive wear and tear they will give you less on trade than the same car in better condition with fewer miles.

[QUOTE=dragracinrs;710229] Its a good deal for the dealer.[/QUOTE

There is NO DIFFERENCE for the dealer in selling a car or leasing a car. Maybe that they get a shot at your business again sooner...but that's it.

Would love to hear why you think that though?

Tell the salesman you want to deal with the sales manager[the salesman will still get his commission.] When the manager goes to the computer screen to work the payment tell him you want to watch what he does. In your payment I am sure he has insurances[flat tire insurance, payment insurance and a few others that you will never use but he will make a higher commision hiding these in the payment.] Tell him you want to watch him take these payments out. If he says they are out make him show you. Usually with a lease there is less commision for the salesman, so they add these insurances in to pad their commission. I just went through this with my wife's car, an A4. You might want to demo one, my wife demoed BMW's and Audi's for over a month and the A4 came out on top. Payment was not an issue. Remember everything out! PM me if you have any other questions and let me know how you make out.All fees, and insurances must be revealed in the disclosure section of the contract according to federal law. There is no way to hide this from the buyer....federal law requires that the manager point this out to the buyer in the contract...there is even a special box on the contract where , by law, the manager is required to point out al fees and have customer acknowledge said fees included and argree or disagree to pay them. The only "fee" there may be is GAP insurance, which ALL LENDERS require in a lease to protect them from any gap in price at return due to a collision etc. GAP is not mandatory in a regular sale because you own the car in the end.

Salesmen get paid the exact same for a lease as the do for a buy....I have never heard any different and I was one of the top salespeople in the entire SOutheast five years straight for Mercedes Benz.


Sorry, it just bugs me the amount of misinformation that is out there.

YES, there can be fees added, but the customer must approve any of them...and yes, in those fees there is profit...dealerships are there to make profit...some more honestly than others for sure, but they are all there to make money.
A GOOD sales manager will turn the screen to you and put it all in in front of you anyway when he is pricing the car, I always did. I explained EVERY penny, no hidden fees, etc.

All fees, and insurances must be revealed in the disclosure section of the contract according to federal law. There is no way to hide this from the buyer....federal law requires that the manager point this out to the buyer in the contract...there is even a special box on the contract where , by law, the manager is required to point out al fees and have customer acknowledge said fees included and argree or disagree to pay them. The only "fee" there may be is GAP insurance, which ALL LENDERS require in a lease to protect them from any gap in price at return due to a collision etc. GAP is not mandatory in a regular sale because you own the car in the end.

Salesmen get paid the exact same for a lease as the do for a buy....I have never heard any different and I was one of the top salespeople in the entire SOutheast five years straight for Mercedes Benz.


Sorry, it just bugs me the amount of misinformation that is out there.

YES, there can be fees added, but the customer must approve any of them...and yes, in those fees there is profit...dealerships are there to make profit...some more honestly than others for sure, but they are all there to make money.
A GOOD sales manager will turn the screen to you and put it all in in front of you anyway when he is pricing the car, I always did. I explained EVERY penny, no hidden fees, etc.

This is the problem with members stepping up and trying to help others out, they get stepped on by others. Yes all fees are required by law to be diclosed. Are they "not 100% of the time or not completely understood or you thinking you need these extras at the time of signing." At this moment there is a case in court of this going on in southeastern PA. In your M B dealership your salesmen were paid the same lease vs sale. This is not what happends in the 1000's of dealerships across the US, just so happens in your case. Fact, I once sold a F250 over 2000.00 of what the sales manager wanted, my cut was 40% of the overage plus my sales commission which was higher then my 350.00 commission on the lease I sold 2 hours later. Your M B dealership sounds like an honest place to do business but don't assume all others are in the same class and have the same honest people. So if the future don't assume until you know the facts.

Marc, if you go back and lease the BMW, please make sure there are no hidden charges and that you understand all the charges at the time you are signing. Sometime there are ways to drop the lease payment 20-50.00/month which could add up to 1800.00 over the time of the lease.

Whoooo alot of good info. Heres my take on it from what I was thinking.

---Doesn't like the G35X..
---Starting with the miles. My wife puts an average of 8000 miles on the car so miles aren't a factor.
---The interest rate for the lease is 4.5%
---As for the buying thing I went back and forth for a while thats why I thought leasing would be better. I looked at it ths way.

$41500 x 60 months with $3000 down = $753 a month.
At the end of 5 years YES we would own it, but theres no way I could afford that payment.

$41500 x 60 months with $15000 down (old car) = $518 a month
This is much more doable, but if she wants a new car 3 years from now we just spent $33648 to drive a car for 3 years. If we sold it I'm sure we wouldn't get a .67 risidual. 3 year old 3 series are going for around $25000. 3 years would pay off around 18K on the loan. Whe we sold it it would leave us with around 8K in our pocket. Now we only have 7K to put down on the next car.

$41500 x 36mo lease with $3400 out of pocket at $515 a month. If I sell my car NOW I could get around $15K leaving $12K in the bank. After 3 years I just spent $21900. So I just spent 5K more than if I was to buy and sell the car after 5 years leaving me with 7K anyway....Follow?

Now If we were to keep the car longer than 36 mo I would say yes BUY.

My thought!

My office manager leases a new Explorer every 2 years. I've never examined the paperwork of course, but she thinks she's getting a good deal and that's what counts. Regardless, she has a permanent low car payment, and always has a very nice new car, nicer than she could afford if she bought it.

This is the problem with members stepping up and trying to help others out, they get stepped on by others. Yes all fees are required by law to be diclosed. Are they "not 100% of the time or not completely understood or you thinking you need these extras at the time of signing." At this moment there is a case in court of this going on in southeastern PA. In your M B dealership your salesmen were paid the same lease vs sale. This is not what happends in the 1000's of dealerships across the US, just so happens in your case. Fact, I once sold a F250 over 2000.00 of what the sales manager wanted, my cut was 40% of the overage plus my sales commission which was higher then my 350.00 commission on the lease I sold 2 hours later. Your M B dealership sounds like an honest place to do business but don't assume all others are in the same class and have the same honest people. So if the future don't assume until you know the facts.

Marc, if you go back and lease the BMW, please make sure there are no hidden charges and that you understand all the charges at the time you are signing. Sometime there are ways to drop the lease payment 20-50.00/month which could add up to 1800.00 over the time of the lease.

1. I did not "step all over you". I simply said that you are misinformed.
I made this ststement from a position of experience. I am confident I know considerably more about this than you do and was trying to "STEP UP" to help another member.

2. Just because a person does not take the time and energy to read thier legal contract does not mean the manager did not follow the law. You are blaming the manager for the laziness of the buyer. EVERY Fand I Manager, in every DEALERSHIP IS required BY FEDERAL LAW to go through , in detail, the items in the disclosure ststement and get acknowledgement that you understand EXACTLY where every penny is and account for it. Problem is that most buyers just want out with thier car. Bottom line...you sign the contract...you are ststing that it was explained to you. Are there exceptions to this.....I am sure there are, but not as many as you think...the risk to the dealer is far too great to lose hiis dealership over a 100 dollar profit.

3. Yes, dealerships may "spiff" certain cars, and pay a higher commission on those...but there is absolutely zero dofference in what the dealer gets paid on a purchase vs. a lease.
So if anyone is assuming they know the facts...It may be you, I have stated nothing but facts...you are the one assuming something you are not experienced in to be honest.

4. Standard fees in a lease would be the GAP Insurance, which the LENDER requires not the dealership, a Disposition fee which is also paid to the lender not the dealership. 99.9 percent of the time a lease is less profitable to the dealer simply because there is no opportunity to sell all the insurances you claim they are. Who buys extended warranty on a lease, who buys tire protection on a lease, GAP is already included, the leased car is typically under warranty for the eentire lease...there is far less opportunity from both a sales ands service perspective for profit on the lease than the buy.

Sorry you took my comments the wrong way, but I am simply trying to give this guy the knowledge I have about leases both from the perspective of a person who has leased about 8 vehicles personally, sold and contracted about 3000 leases, and was highest in my entire reigon in customer satisfaction personally for how I did business. All the while selling 100K cars to people who clearly understand money and how it works , generally....VERY highly educated people for the most part, who are very money smart.

Not trying to argue...just simply saying that you are overgeneralizing, with little to no experience to base your points on.

Sorry I tried to help...but Leases have a bad name from people who do not understand them...period. They can , in fact, be great for MANY reasons. No hard feelings Jay....i hope.

Whoooo alot of good info. Heres my take on it from what I was thinking.

---Doesn't like the G35X..
---Starting with the miles. My wife puts an average of 8000 miles on the car so miles aren't a factor.
---The interest rate for the lease is 4.5%
---As for the buying thing I went back and forth for a while thats why I thought leasing would be better. I looked at it ths way.

$41500 x 60 months with $3000 down = $753 a month.
At the end of 5 years YES we would own it, but theres no way I could afford that payment.

$41500 x 60 months with $15000 down (old car) = $518 a month
This is much more doable, but if she wants a new car 3 years from now we just spent $33648 to drive a car for 3 years. If we sold it I'm sure we wouldn't get a .67 risidual. 3 year old 3 series are going for around $25000. 3 years would pay off around 18K on the loan. Whe we sold it it would leave us with around 8K in our pocket. Now we only have 7K to put down on the next car.

$41500 x 36mo lease with $3400 out of pocket at $515 a month. If I sell my car NOW I could get around $15K leaving $12K in the bank. After 3 years I just spent $21900. So I just spent 5K more than if I was to buy and sell the car after 5 years leaving me with 7K anyway....Follow?

Now If we were to keep the car longer than 36 mo I would say yes BUY.

My thought!

In your particular case leasing would be FAR less expensive than buying. If you like you can PM me and I'll explain why with the numbers. I have NOTHING to gain financially..so no reason other than to show you why.

The VAST majority are not good for leases....that's why they have a bad name..because typically a dealer doesn't care if you are a good candidate or a bad one..they just want to move a car. GOOD dealers and good salesmen want to sell you 10 cars...not just one. If they screw you into a lease that isn't good for you..you probably won't buy from them again. I'll be happy to give you any advice you ask me for, but really don't feel like having arguments with people on a subject I did for a living, and very well...when they have not.

Hope I can help

UT

"$41500 x 60 months with $3000 down = $753 a month.
At the end of 5 years YES we would own it, but theres no way I could afford that payment."


Or buy a car you can afford! I personally buy what I want and can afford and keep it forever laughing as I drive by a bank through the years!!

pdq67 and my cheap corn-poppers!!

"$41500 x 60 months with $3000 down = $753 a month.
At the end of 5 years YES we would own it, but theres no way I could afford that payment."


Or buy a car you can afford! I personally buy what I want and can afford and keep it forever laughing as I drive by a bank through the years!!

pdq67 and my cheap corn-poppers!!
The very best way to get a good deal on a car is to buy it and drive it till the wheels fall off.

Those people are not good lease candidates.
I am not saying that leases are great for everyone...but there are circumstances where leasing is better than buying for some, and it is financially smarter to do so.

For some , buying a car is not as smart as leasing.

I just hate the overgeneralization of people in the car business....while I agree that the business certainly has it's bad side...so does every business.

The best thing you can do as a consumer is do your homework, crunch the numbers yourself, and educate yourself as to how it all works. Idiots get screwed for no other reason than they did not take the time to learn about how they are spending thier money. Personally, and I may very well be in the minorty I guess, I was a VERY honest salesman and manager..and did VERY, VERY well because of that.

Like I siad, I will be happy to show him, with the math, why for this guy leasing may be cheaper. It's not rocket science.

If you are educated in the process, pay attention, ask questions and have half a brain...there are no "hidden fees"...it is all explained at contract...now wether or not you listen , pay attention, and ask questions is up to you the buyer.

I have had plenty of people argue the disposition fee when they turned in thier lease...but it was plainly line itemed in the disclosure...they just forget, or aren't paying attention. That fee goes straight to the bank by the way..not the dealer.

1. I did not "step all over you". I simply said that you are misinformed.
I made this ststement from a position of experience. I am confident I know considerably more about this than you do and was trying to "STEP UP" to help another member.

2. Just because a person does not take the time and energy to read thier legal contract does not mean the manager did not follow the law. You are blaming the manager for the laziness of the buyer. EVERY Fand I Manager, in every DEALERSHIP IS required BY FEDERAL LAW to go through , in detail, the items in the disclosure ststement and get acknowledgement that you understand EXACTLY where every penny is and account for it. Problem is that most buyers just want out with thier car. Bottom line...you sign the contract...you are ststing that it was explained to you. Are there exceptions to this.....I am sure there are, but not as many as you think...the risk to the dealer is far too great to lose hiis dealership over a 100 dollar profit.

3. Yes, dealerships may "spiff" certain cars, and pay a higher commission on those...but there is absolutely zero dofference in what the dealer gets paid on a purchase vs. a lease.
So if anyone is assuming they know the facts...It may be you, I have stated nothing but facts...you are the one assuming something you are not experienced in to be honest.

4. Standard fees in a lease would be the GAP Insurance, which the LENDER requires not the dealership, a Disposition fee which is also paid to the lender not the dealership. 99.9 percent of the time a lease is less profitable to the dealer simply because there is no opportunity to sell all the insurances you claim they are. Who buys extended warranty on a lease, who buys tire protection on a lease, GAP is already included, the leased car is typically under warranty for the eentire lease...there is far less opportunity from both a sales ands service perspective for profit on the lease than the buy.

Sorry you took my comments the wrong way, but I am simply trying to give this guy the knowledge I have about leases both from the perspective of a person who has leased about 8 vehicles personally, sold and contracted about 3000 leases, and was highest in my entire reigon in customer satisfaction personally for how I did business. All the while selling 100K cars to people who clearly understand money and how it works , generally....VERY highly educated people for the most part, who are very money smart.

Not trying to argue...just simply saying that you are overgeneralizing, with little to no experience to base your points on.

Sorry I tried to help...but Leases have a bad name from people who do not understand them...period. They can , in fact, be great for MANY reasons. No hard feelings Jay....i hope.

Uncle T, I did not state there is a difference in the dealerships commission lease vs sale. I stated there is a difference in the salesman's commission, whick I know for a fact. Please, if you are going to say I am misinformed, read what I posted.

June 29, 2005 my wife tests drives the A4 for the third time. She tells the salesman to work up a lease price. He can not close the deal so the FI guy gives it a try. Not until my husband looks it over, she tells him. I go up and check it out and there is flat tire insurance in the quote with loss of income insurance. The finance guy did not tell my wife about those two things because she did not agree to the price or was ready to sign. He most likely would have disclosed those things at signing but sometimes during the excitment of buying a new car those things can go in one ear and out the other to a buyer to the joy of the finance manager. That is my most recent experience.

What I was stating was there sometimes are ways to lower the lease price without adding money down. Not everyone is as informed as you think you are. I never disputed what a finance manager is required to do. If you think there is not a way to lower the first lease price a salesman throws at you without adding money down, you are misinformed. I've seen it before and I seen it at my most recent experience. All I was trying to do is to get Marc to read and ask questions and make sure there is nothing extra added in, so he could lower his payment.

So next time you want to step all over someone please read and reread their post before your A D D kicks in.

Wheee!!

I was going to come back and appologize for sticking my earlier comment in here but I don't think I have to b/c it appears to be heading down hill any way!!

pdq67

"If you enjoy driving a new car every two or three years, want lower monthly payments, like having a car that has the latest safety features and is always under warranty, don't like trading and selling used cars, don't care about ownership equity, drive an average number of miles, properly maintain your cars, and are willing to pay more over the long haul to get these benefits, then you should lease.
If you don't mind higher monthly payments, prefer to build up some trade-in or resale value, like the idea of having ownership, like paying off your loan to be payment-free for a while, don't mind the unexpected cost of repairs after warranty has expired, drive more than average miles, prefer to drive your cars for years to spread out the cost, like to customize your cars, and don't like the risk of surprise lease-end charges — then you should buy".

The whole car buying experience is right up there with getting a tooth pulled with no novocain. No two people will ever pay the same price for the same indentical car. If you are a woman or a minority, you are easy prey for car dealers. What you pay for a car depends on your negotiating skills. You need to have a Masters Degree in Mathamatics to understand the negotiating process. Most people can't calculate the cost of an extra .25 % on a $30k/5yr loan,in their head.
Uncle T, this is not a personal slam @ you. Just the whole car industry in general.

Uncle T, I did not state there is a difference in the dealerships commission lease vs sale. I stated there is a difference in the salesman's commission, whick I know for a fact. Please, if you are going to say I am misinformed, read what I posted.

June 29, 2005 my wife tests drives the A4 for the third time. She tells the salesman to work up a lease price. He can not close the deal so the FI guy gives it a try. Not until my husband looks it over, she tells him. I go up and check it out and there is flat tire insurance in the quote with loss of income insurance. The finance guy did not tell my wife about those two things because she did not agree to the price or was ready to sign. He most likely would have disclosed those things at signing but sometimes during the excitment of buying a new car those things can go in one ear and out the other to a buyer to the joy of the finance manager. That is my most recent experience.

What I was stating was there sometimes are ways to lower the lease price without adding money down. Not everyone is as informed as you think you are. I never disputed what a finance manager is required to do. If you think there is not a way to lower the first lease price a salesman throws at you without adding money down, you are misinformed. I've seen it before and I seen it at my most recent experience. All I was trying to do is to get Marc to read and ask questions and make sure there is nothing extra added in, so he could lower his payment.

So next time you want to step all over someone please read and reread their post before your A D D kicks in.Unless there is a spiff, the commission would be the same...I have friends at about 100 dealerships, have never heard of a lease commission being higher than a sale commission. Why would a dealership pay a higher commission to a salesperson on a regular basis for a lease than a sale when the profit for the dealer is the same? Makes no sense from a business perspective. The Manufacturing lender , because a lease usually goes through them may offer an incentive, but I've never seen that and I worked for the highest paying car line in the nation from a bonus structure standpoint and salesman compensation.

I am not saying they could not try to add the insurances...but they cannot force you to pay them, unless required by the lender. They can TRY to add anything they want.

Yes, you can lower the price of a lease by lowering the money factor and/or change the mileage. Residuals are not adjustable without changing the term or mileage. I do not ever recommend putting money down on a lease, unless it is for budget or business reasons.

I read your post, and to be honest..you are still wrong. I KNOW I am more experienced in this area, and will not argue it with you any more. Sorry dude...again no hard feelings...and I don't argue with people who like to throw out personal insults anyway (your ADD comment is childish and uncalled for.)

Essentially..you clould lease two cars for the rest of your life and I will still have run and conducted more lease business transactions than you have if I never did another one again.

I have bought and sold more cars than you could dream of....I am pretty sure how it works. Thanks for the kind words though.

The whole car buying experience is right up there with getting a tooth pulled with no novocain. No two people will ever pay the same price for the same indentical car. If you are a woman or a minority, you are easy prey for car dealers. What you pay for a car depends on your negotiating skills. You need to have a Masters Degree in Mathamatics to understand the negotiating process. Most people can't calculate the cost of an extra .25 % on a $30k/5yr loan,in their head. [/FONT]
Uncle T, this is not a personal slam @ you. Just the whole car industry in general.

The car buying experience can, and should be a good experience. The problem is that 90% of car guys are in it for the short term and don't make a career out of it. They are after the one time sale and quick buck. Yes, I believe that women and to an extent minorities are more taken advantage of by bad dealers who use high pressure and confusing tactics.

I am certainly not defending shady car guys there are plenty of them. But I prefer not to be attacked for giving my inside knowledge and trying to explain something I have done thousands of times to help out a fellow TC member...at no benefit to myself..and then have some guy who has leased one car tell me how the car business works.

I was an honest salesman, Manager, anad F&I Manager....they are out there...plenty of them.

No offense taken by your comments. Just those of Jay.

Just for the record...from a dealers perspective. There is no difference wether the car is sold or leased.

The dealer owns the car on his lot. When he sells it as a sale the customer pays him the negotiated price. When he leases it the bank pays for the car.

Either way the car is sold to a buyer....be that a private owner, or a bank.

Profit margins are the same, therefore , unless there is a spiff, comission is the same.

The dealer could care less wether a car sells or leases...either way it's a sold car. There is always some kickback to dealers for market penetration with the manufacturers lender. Like MB Credit wanted at least 40 percent of our contracts...but that never stands in the way of a dealer using ANY other lender to sell the car, or lease the car.

So, I fail to see how, or why, a commision to a salesman would be less on a lease than a purchase. As for selling the insurances. A good F and I guy should offer every product he has to the buyer. That's his job. Wether they want it or not...you offer it. In fact, You can be sued for offering it to one customer and not offering it to another...so you pitch it all. That's what F and I is....finance and insurance. We had a lot of useless stuff to sell...etch, rustproof, tire warranty, accidental ins, out of work ins...etc. Most of it you don't often sell...but some of it people buy..because they want it.

ALL OF THESE are profit generating....typically the car produces little or no profit especially in domestic cars. Dealerships live and die on thier holdback, service dept, and F and I. Making a point on rate on every customer usually generates more income than the car itself.

I will be HAPPY to share any info I have, it's no secret...but I will not be called a liar, cheat, be it directly or indirectly. I will bnot be told I have ADD...or be insulted.

Obviously, I like to talk and share this info. I didn't start the thread...but to be hones most people get screwed at a dealership by listening to "what a friend" told them how it works....and 9/10 times that friend causes more harm than good.

I did this every day , very successfully, for a long time. I know EVERY trick in the book...didn't use them, but I know them. So...all I offer is educated advice. Take it or leave it.

Unless there is a spiff, the commission would be the same...I have friends at about 100 dealerships, have never heard of a lease commission being higher than a sale commission. Why would a dealership pay a higher commission to a salesperson on a regular basis for a lease than a sale when the profit for the dealer is the same? Makes no sense from a business perspective. The Manufacturing lender , because a lease usually goes through them may offer an incentive, but I've never seen that and I worked for the highest paying car line in the nation from a bonus structure standpoint and salesman compensation.

I am not saying they could not try to add the insurances...but they cannot force you to pay them, unless required by the lender. They can TRY to add anything they want.

Yes, you can lower the price of a lease by lowering the money factor and/or change the mileage. Residuals are not adjustable without changing the term or mileage. I do not ever recommend putting money down on a lease, unless it is for budget or business reasons.

I read your post, and to be honest..you are still wrong. I KNOW I am more experienced in this area, and will not argue it with you any more. Sorry dude...again no hard feelings...and I don't argue with people who like to throw out personal insults anyway (your ADD comment is childish and uncalled for.)

Essentially..you clould lease two cars for the rest of your life and I will still have run and conducted more lease business transactions than you have if I never did another one again.

I have bought and sold more cars than you could dream of....I am pretty sure how it works. Thanks for the kind words though.

Unc, please tell me where I posted that lease commissions are higher then sales commissions on a new car. The profit to the dealership is different. I did not question your experience. When I sold, to put my way through school, the sales manager would give us a price of what he wanted for the car. Lets say 20k. Out of that 20k salesman commission would be 250.00 if the car sold for 20k. We as salesman would try to sell for 22k and go down from there. If we sold for 21k we would get our 250.00 plus 40% of the 1000.00 overage. This is how we made money. For leases we would get 200.00/car. This is why I stated sales commissions are higher.

I never stated a dealer could force you to pay anything. It seems your dealership just worked things differently. All dealerships are not the same. Please read what I posted and don't misquote me. People like you are reason good people leave these forums. Sometimes you have to say "I was wrong." Try it you will feel better and you don't have to say thank you.

Although entertaining, your little battle of wills is starting to look a little pathetic. Either one of you could choose to stop taking shots and move on at any time.

Chill and go have a beer or something... :beers:

Unc, please tell me where I posted that lease commissions are higher then sales commissions on a new car. The profit to the dealership is different. I did not question your experience. When I sold, to put my way through school, the sales manager would give us a price of what he wanted for the car. Lets say 20k. Out of that 20k salesman commission would be 250.00 if the car sold for 20k. We as salesman would try to sell for 22k and go down from there. If we sold for 21k we would get our 250.00 plus 40% of the 1000.00 overage. This is how we made money. For leases we would get 200.00/car. This is why I stated sales commissions are higher.

I never stated a dealer could force you to pay anything. It seems your dealership just worked things differently. All dealerships are not the same. Please read what I posted and don't misquote me. People like you are reason good people leave these forums. Sometimes you have to say "I was wrong." Try it you will feel better and you don't have to say thank you.
You said the comissions were lower on a lease...maybe at your dealership way back when...not at any dealership I worked at or had friends that worked at. Once the price is negotiated and the car is sold...that's what the dealer gets, be it from the individual or the bank. A purchase, and a lease, to the DEALER is EXACTLY the same. If your dealership paid you less you were getting screwed, sorry....they got the same.

Cars are sold to only two entities...individuals or banks who hold the note on that car.

I would be HAPPY to say I was wrong....if I were. I agree that all dealerships are not the same...but the car business is all the same..just how each dealer operates it.

I got paid EXACTLY the same for a sale as a lease....I got paid off the profit made from the car on the front end as a salesman.

If I sold a 100K car I got my comission just as if I leased a 100K car...the reason being that the car sold for 100K wether the buyer or the bank paid it.

No difference. My dealer paid us honestly...seems yours didn't. Basing your opinion on how YOU got paid vs. how the business operates is where your opinion loses it's validity. Sorry.

Although entertaining, your little battle of wills is starting to look a little pathetic. Either one of you could choose to stop taking shots and move on at any time.

Chill and go have a beer or something... :beers:
I haven't made any personal remarks. I haven't taken any personal shots. I am simply answering to comments.

No difference in arguing this or arguing other things on many other threads on here.

Sorry.

I haven't made any personal remarks. I haven't taken any personal shots. I am simply answering to comments.

No difference in arguing this or arguing other things on many other threads on here.

Sorry.

That's fine, claim ignorance. Go ahead and continue on it only makes you look foolish, which is always your choice.

That's fine, claim ignorance. Go ahead and continue on it only makes you look foolish, which is always your choice.
I am not claiming ignorance Paul...I have not made this personal with him or you. But this forum is for discussion...and I am discussing. I joined , and paid my fee to do just that. I did not name call...he did. If the powers that be disagree...the can remove me, ban me, whatever I guess. I have been respectful even when he called names. There are a lot of threads on here I don't care for ...seemingly like you don't care for this one. I stay out of them.

Sorry man, Just voicing my opinion and defending myself....is that not allowed?


I fail to see where I have been disrespectful, or out of line. Sorry you disagree.

Look, you're a cool guy with a cool camaro and a bunch a car sales experience...that's a fact. I think that I'll just leave it at that, no need to continue to push this topic. I'm not here to start something with you. Just here to share the first gen experience! :thumbsup:

Look, you're a cool guy with a cool camaro and a bunch a car sales experience...that's a fact. I think that I'll just leave it at that, no need to continue to push this topic. I'm not here to start something with you. Just here to share the first gen experience! :thumbsup:

Me too. I am here to hang out , have fun, and talk and make friends. A fellow member asked a question in an area that I have GREAT deal of knowledge in and I offered my help and opinion from an insiders perspective. I then have a guy who "sold cars for a while" insult me, say I have ADD, say people like me are the reason people leave this site etc.

I was just trying to help out another member with a question that member solicited. Thought that was what this was for.

I am not pushing the topic...rather I am being told by Jay that I am all these things...and should just admit to being wrong.

Not gonna happen...if anything I was here to help and any complaints should be against him for his namecalling etc. THAT IS CERTAINLY NOT WHAT THIS FORUM IS FOR. I have been , and will be respectful.

No hard feelings, but I am just defending myself on this one...nothing more.

:beers:

WHAT THE HECK....JEEZZZ WHY DOES EVERYTHING TURN INTO A PISSING MATCH.. EVERYBODY JUST GET ALONG....ANYWAY....

I got a call from another dealer today..backtrack..I forgot to tell you the dealer I went to had a total attitude problem. My wife and I walked in there and I guess because I wasn't wearing a suit and tie and my wife was in sweats he looked down on us. He was very short with his comments. To the point of rude. He asked us "if we were trading in our car" I told him that "I prob wouldn't get what I wanted" so he said "I have someone look at it anyway" Well... He came back with a quote of $9500!! When the guy was checking the car out he has this orange triangle thing that he said measures the depth of the paint. He said if its ever been repainted it will show up on that. So the man came back with a write up saying that all the panels were incosistent and required a chassis alignment! You put two and two together. I said he was out of his mind. He turned around and said" I doesn't matter anyway because you weren't trading in anyway" with an atitude. My wife and I walked out.

Now back to the dealer that called today. Like night and day very nice and told me everything I wanted to know. She endend up giving me a quote of $501 with $3200 out of pocket. Were going this weekend to talk to her. It just stinks that shes 50 min from us.

Sorry to hear that Marc. The business sucks sometimes. Remember read everything ask questions and you will be fine. Good Luck!

Advice for all - When we are all here for the company, relaxing and helping each other it would be in everyones interest to not state opinions in such a way that it says "you are wrong and I am right". It doesn't take any name calling to start something and no matter how polite one is, if the emphasis is on defending ones position and showing the other guy they are wrong it becomes about you and not about helping others.

I forget the magicians name but he makes buildings, bridges, 747's and stuff disappear. We all know a building just doesn't vanish, it's logic! We all would argue to the death he can't make a bridge disappear and reappear again. From the perception of his audience he indeed makes it happen. Perception is the key here, two different individuals working for different managers at different dealerships at different times learned a trade. Not only were things done different (no definitive rule book on car sales) but being individuals they have different perceptions based on their experiences. Both could be 100% right based on what they each injested.

In a thread like this everyone needs to be open minded and accepting of each other. State your opinion without in-fering others are full of it and you can help people and get along too...

Just a few questions so I can understand this. Did your dealership have set prices for the cars? If not what would be the incentive for the salesman to sell the same car at a higher price if his commission was the same? We would try to sell the same car or truck at higher prices each time to make more. If we made more the dealer made more. Which would mean each car or truck would have a different profit though equipped the same.

Advice for all - When we are all here for the company, relaxing and helping each other it would be in everyones interest to not state opinions in such a way that it says "you are wrong and I am right". It doesn't take any name calling to start something and no matter how polite one is, if the emphasis is on defending ones position and showing the other guy they are wrong it becomes about you and not about helping others.

I forget the magicians name but he makes buildings, bridges, 747's and stuff disappear. We all know a building just doesn't vanish, it's logic! We all would argue to the death he can't make a bridge disappear and reappear again. From the perception of his audience he indeed makes it happen. Perception is the key here, two different individuals working for different managers at different dealerships at different times learned a trade. Not only were things done different (no definitive rule book on car sales) but being individuals they have different perceptions based on their experiences. Both could be 100% right based on what they each injested.

In a thread like this everyone needs to be open minded and accepting of each other. State your opinion without in-fering others are full of it and you can help people and get along too...

Well said!
:beers:

now if only "everyone" would read and heed...

I do think the initial question has been answered.

Unc,

What's a "spiff"??

pdq67

Just a few questions so I can understand this. Did your dealership have set prices for the cars? If not what would be the incentive for the salesman to sell the same car at a higher price if his commission was the same? We would try to sell the same car or truck at higher prices each time to make more. If we made more the dealer made more. Which would mean each car or truck would have a different profit though equipped the same.
All is cool. not sure if this was directed at me...if so tell me and I'll answer it.

I apologize if I defended my position too far, I am just one of those car guys who tried VERY hard to be honest, and be a good salesman, then a good F&I guy, and a good sales manager. It just irks me to have worked so hard for that, done so well , and still get lumped into the "crooked car guy" bin.

I had a high moral code...which in the car biz is rare. Anyway...seriously, no hard feelings.

SPIF,
"Sales Promotion Incentive Fund"

Unc,

What's a "spiff"??

pdq67

A Spiff is extra money paid to the salesman in comission by the dealer , the manufacturer, or the lender for selling certain products, cars, or volume.

Example: Lets say you had a car that was hard to move, and the dealer knew the only way to get his salespeople to sell it was to spiff the car. The regular comission may be $250 and the dealer would "spiff the car" another 250 for a total comission of 500.

That is a spiff.

WHAT THE HECK....JEEZZZ WHY DOES EVERYTHING TURN INTO A PISSING MATCH.. EVERYBODY JUST GET ALONG....ANYWAY....

I got a call from another dealer today..backtrack..I forgot to tell you the dealer I went to had a total attitude problem. My wife and I walked in there and I guess because I wasn't wearing a suit and tie and my wife was in sweats he looked down on us. He was very short with his comments. To the point of rude. He asked us "if we were trading in our car" I told him that "I prob wouldn't get what I wanted" so he said "I have someone look at it anyway" Well... He came back with a quote of $9500!! When the guy was checking the car out he has this orange triangle thing that he said measures the depth of the paint. He said if its ever been repainted it will show up on that. So the man came back with a write up saying that all the panels were incosistent and required a chassis alignment! You put two and two together. I said he was out of his mind. He turned around and said" I doesn't matter anyway because you weren't trading in anyway" with an atitude. My wife and I walked out.

Now back to the dealer that called today. Like night and day very nice and told me everything I wanted to know. She endend up giving me a quote of $501 with $3200 out of pocket. Were going this weekend to talk to her. It just stinks that shes 50 min from us.
That instrument measures paint depth, and while they are accurate...it does not tell if the car had more paint added at the factory. Cars get dinged and repainted there also...not just in accidents.

A good used car manager wil know the difference.

Since I don't have anything intelligent to say in the mechanical / technical / body / tag or other forums that require skill, talent, or expertise, I thought I'd chime in here :)

BMW - Great car, but they decline in value (I think) more than most. I just sold my 7501 over the weekend and I think it depreciated about 90% of it's original value. Granted, it was 15 years old, but that's a LOT of decline in dollar amount.

New Cars - Just my thing, but I don't like buying them new. I just hate the thought of taking the depreciation the first couple of years. The last new vehicle I bought was a '98 Caravan for the wife... when she was pregnant with the second child she wanted a van that opened from both sides, so I caved. Prior to that the last new car I bought was a 1994 Scirocco.

Lease - I'm no expert but I just can't understand how renting a car for 3 or 4 years is a good idea for most people. At least if you buy it youhave equity when it's all done.

Purchase - The way I think is "cash is king" - When I was younger, and I wanted to buy a 1 or 2 year old car, I went to the bank, took out a loan, and went out and made my own deal with cash. Then, after I owned it, I went back to the bank and took out a loan against the car. Ususlly at a point or so higher than the dealer would give me, but the Total Purchase Price was always lower, because I made it up on the deal on the car.

"No Interest / Low Interest / etc. - Not sure if this is how it works in the car biz, but I know for a fact how it works in most retail businesses. If a dealer offers an under market interest rate they are usually "buying down" the interest. That means that they have to pay the finance company a perventage of the loan. The reason is because of marketing. If Moeny costs 5%, and they are offering you 0%, somebody has to pay for it. It's all factored into the deal." If I "sell" you a No Interest / No Payments loan for 20k, and I have to pay the finance company 5%, that means I charged you and extra $1,000... if the buydown is 10%, it's $2,000...it's all "hidden" in the deal. Paying cash gives you the opportunity to put that buydown in your pocket and shop the best financing from the most aggressive lender.

Of course, I could be wring about everything I said, in which case I will go back to reading the technical forums, which is the most I can do there.

That instrument measures paint depth, and while they are accurate...it does not tell if the car had more paint added at the factory. Cars get dinged and repainted there also...not just in accidents.

A good used car manager wil know the difference.

Ok say it was repainted anaig in the factory. What would be the reason for a Chassis alignment??? I'm sure a ding wouldn't cause that.

Ok say it was repainted anaig in the factory. What would be the reason for a Chassis alignment??? I'm sure a ding wouldn't cause that.

No, of course not...what exactly is a Chasis alignment anyway...were they saying it had frame damage?

I have never heard of that before...:)

Who knows...Like I said , there are a lot of bad car guys out there, bad managers, bad f and I guys, etc.

I always recommend finding a good honest place, regardless of distance, find a good salesman who you can have a great business relationship with and stay with him/her.

My customers, when I was in sales, NEVER spoke to a manager...most of them refused a managers help if I wasn't there that day and they came in. When I moved into Management....I retained all my customers, handled all thier deals from beginning to end. Had I not had a dealer that was an egomaniac (most are) and felt I was making too much money...I'd still be doing it today.
A good "car guy" is just like having a good banker, insurance man etc.....ya spend a lot of money with them...make sure ya like and trust them.

Thanks.

In other words, they make something they figure darn well won't move b/c they will probably make a tad more money off it IF it does by chance sell. It doesn't, so they sic the Salesmen on the customers using dollars as an incentive to move something, right..

I'd say it was bad marketing from the git-go and that is basically what is killing them to this day...

pdq67

Thanks.

In other words, they make something they figure darn well won't move b/c they will probably make a tad more money off it IF it does by chance sell. It doesn't, so they sic the Salesmen on the customers using dollars as an incentive to move something, right..

I'd say it was bad marketing from the git-go and that is basically what is killing them to this day...

pdq67It is essentailly a bonus...that is just one type of spiff...others would be X amount of cars per month spiffs, X amount of cars per day, etc. But usually a spiff car is a car that the dealer has to discount so much that the salesman is guaranteed a "mini" (or minimum commission).
Salespeople hate mini's so they steer away from cars that they know they get a mini on. The car is usually a new car, nothing wrong with it...may be last year's model, bad color, bad car (pontiac Aztec for example, poor seller)...etc. Bottom line is the dealer still owns that car and wants it out of inventory...so to incentivise the salespeople to show it he offers a better commission on it.

Spiffs are not a bad thing really, they are good for the dealer and salespeopleb but not necessarily bad for the customer. In the end....it is ALWAYS the customers decision what to buy and how to buy it.

All dealerships pay thier salespeople differently, the pay plans are always varying from dealer to dealer. Some Salespeople get an unforgivable draw, some a forgivable draw, some get salary and commission, some straight commission, some are paid only on the front, some front and back, some get commissions for selling Extended Warranty, some don't, some have percentage increase for volume, some don't. Some offer bonuses for closes, TO's, Etc. LOTS and LOTS of differing pay plans. That is a dealer decision. There are also manufacturer incentives for salespeople sometimes...we called them spins. Those are from the maker not the dealer.

There are certainly some creative ways to pay salespeople.

Spiff's are designed to light a fire under the car salesman. The goal in the car business is to close the deal. How do you do that? Some dealerships might offer each salesman a $10 spiff for each test drive. $20 for each write-up. etc,etc. As Uncle T stated, spifs can be for total sales in a month etc, or, for a smaller daily bonus. Spiff's are designed to reward the salesman for helping to move the customer through the sales process.

Spiff's are designed to light a fire under the car salesman. The goal in the car business is to close the deal. How do you do that? Some dealerships might offer each salesman a $10 spiff for each test drive. $20 for each write-up. etc,etc. As Uncle T stated, spifs can be for total sales in a month etc, or, for a smaller daily bonus. Spiff's are designed to reward the salesman for helping to move the customer through the sales process.
Exactly.
My Mercedes Dealership had a sister dealership owned by the same dealer. That dealership sold VW/NISSAN/PONTIAC/BUICK....they had plenty of low dollar spiffs there. 10 bucks for each test drive, 20 for a signed buyers order, 25 if they went into the business offer etc.

My store...at Mercedes also had spiffs...but not like that...ours were in the way of selling the Alpine Green E Class (not a popular color) that the manufacturer made us take etc. For some dealerships and salespeople spiffs are a VERY necessary part of being successful, as well as income for the salespeople.

The guy at my sister store had to sell 10 cars to make what I could make off one car. I averaged 15-25 cars per month...he would had to have sold at least 150 cars a month to make what I was making...all his deals were mimi's...in fact 90% of the stores deals there were minis.

Spiffs , like i said, aren't necesarily bad...they are just used by managers and dealers to get the salespeople to do thier jobs, like Dayton said.