I have an opportunity to buy an X77 cowl tag. The tag is still on the car and I've known the car for 20+ years...it is a real Z. It was backhalfed and is not going to be restored...it is going to be raced. I recently read the thread about the fake tags and saw that the guy got a couple grand for them. I would have to pay more than that, but I think it will be worth it in the future, given the skyrocketing prices of Z cars. What do you think?

Gib

I think you're going to get a very, very nasty response. Given that we have had several guys lately with cars with swapped VINs, swapped tags, cars tied up in CRIMINAL investigations, we aren't exactly fond of what you're suggesting. We can spot fake tags, and we can spot real tags that don't belong on the car being touted as "real." Go away.

If someone buys your Trim Tag and clones a Z from it but doesnt tell a car buyer its a clone, thats fraud. Trim Tags are not yet illegal to sell BUT most folks in here consider selling of Trim Tags to be just as wrong as altering VIN numbers. Please dont do it, you will be caught up in a problem someday as the one who started it all, is that worth the hassel for a few bucks? Be honest now or someday your room might have striped sunlight.

You would do better to buy the car from the guy, trade him a nice 69 that's already been back halfed You can find them all the time under the drag racing heading on ebay. He wins, and you win, the original Z car is worth quite a bit right now. Sell it as an unrestored shell, and I bet you'll still come out ahead, and a Hero for saving a real Z.

You would do better to buy the car from the guy, trade him a nice 69 that's already been back halfed You can find them all the time under the drag racing heading on ebay. He wins, and you win, the original Z car is worth quite a bit right now. Sell it as an unrestored shell, and I bet you'll still come out ahead, and a Hero for saving a real Z.
Exellent advice.

You would do better to buy the car from the guy, trade him a nice 69 that's already been back halfed You can find them all the time under the drag racing heading on ebay. He wins, and you win, the original Z car is worth quite a bit right now. Sell it as an unrestored shell, and I bet you'll still come out ahead, and a Hero for saving a real Z.

Excellent, level headed advice. My response was going to have a little different tone until I read your reply.

GIBTHEKID,
There is so much fraud going on with these cars it makes most Camaro hobbyist sick. Please leave any original indentification that you might come across on one of these old Camaros intact and right where it belongs, with the original car.

Thanks
Doug

this stuff is a shame , but I think in the end the hobbiest will win out because I already see a trend of paying less and less attention to the cowl tag number's , sooner or later ALL camaro's will just be presummed to be fake !
I hate to say that but how can it turn out any other way ? look at the recent barrett jackson the pro touring (FOOSED) type car's brought more money than did the 1967 Z/28's , the market for these car's went thru the roof FAST just ten years ago a 1969 Z/28 all original could be bought for anywhere from 5K to a max of 20K ,,,,,, now they sell on ebay for 80K ! or more ! so the fake tag's are more and more widely used ,,
I liked it better when you could go to a scrap yard and buy part's and most 67 68 69 camaro's were listed two pages at a time in the local paper for $800 to $1500 buck's AHHHHH the 80's ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,where's my rubik's cube ??

Some great advice...Thanks!. I am pursuing the purchase of the car. GM created a loophole with cowl tags and the lack of documentation in the U.S. The way things will be in the future, as posted, is that cars that were sold in the U.S. will be presumed to be fake and it puts the burden of proof with the owner, i.e. the owner must now provide more significant proof that his/her Z28 is real. POP,build sheet,original documentation, sales documents, etc. will be the difference between the men and the boys. And that is the way it should be. At this time, undocumented Z28s only have to display a cowl tag for people to pay ridiculous amounts. This is a problem that GM created and GM is solely responsible. Anybody who buys a Z28 and pays huge for it without getting more proof or documentation gets what they deserve...the possibility that they have a Z28. The cowl tag doesn't mean anything to a savvy investor. And let's face it folks, that, unfortunately is all these cars have become. I can't remember the last time I heard of a hobbyist laying $80,000-$100,000 on a weekend fun toy. Most would simply clone a Z28 because that's the only affordable way. And thankfully, the body of a six cylinder car was made IDENTICALLY to the body of a Z28...That's the beauty of it all...a future with a hundred thousand Z28s...everybody gets to have one!

Gib The Kid...Freezing in Canada (Home of the documented Z28)

Some great advice...Thanks!. I am pursuing the purchase of the car. GM created a loophole with cowl tags and the lack of documentation in the U.S. The way things will be in the future, as posted, is that cars that were sold in the U.S. will be presumed to be fake and it puts the burden of proof with the owner, i.e. the owner must now provide more significant proof that his/her Z28 is real. POP,build sheet,original documentation, sales documents, etc. will be the difference between the men and the boys. And that is the way it should be. At this time, undocumented Z28s only have to display a cowl tag for people to pay ridiculous amounts. This is a problem that GM created and GM is solely responsible. Anybody who buys a Z28 and pays huge for it without getting more proof or documentation gets what they deserve...the possibility that they have a Z28. The cowl tag doesn't mean anything to a savvy investor. And let's face it folks, that, unfortunately is all these cars have become. I can't remember the last time I heard of a hobbyist laying $80,000-$100,000 on a weekend fun toy. Most would simply clone a Z28 because that's the only affordable way. And thankfully, the body of a six cylinder car was made IDENTICALLY to the body of a Z28...That's the beauty of it all...a future with a hundred thousand Z28s...everybody gets to have one!

Gib The Kid...Freezing in Canada (Home of the documented Z28)

I think that your take on the matter is some what wrong. Other than Canadian Z's your are not going to find many documented US built Z's. Just becuase you find a car with paperwork, it still does make it a real Z. Paperwork is now being faked as well. Very few Z's have rock solid paperwork

Without paperwok there are still many other things that you can use to determine whether a car is a real Z or not. 100% accurate? No but it should give you an very good indication.

when i was young the thing we said was there are more z/28 emblems sold then z/28 's the problem is just getting worse

Some great advice...Thanks!. I am pursuing the purchase of the car. GM created a loophole with cowl tags and the lack of documentation in the U.S. The way things will be in the future, as posted, is that cars that were sold in the U.S. will be presumed to be fake and it puts the burden of proof with the owner, i.e. the owner must now provide more significant proof that his/her Z28 is real. POP,build sheet,original documentation, sales documents, etc. will be the difference between the men and the boys. And that is the way it should be. At this time, undocumented Z28s only have to display a cowl tag for people to pay ridiculous amounts. This is a problem that GM created and GM is solely responsible. Anybody who buys a Z28 and pays huge for it without getting more proof or documentation gets what they deserve...the possibility that they have a Z28. The cowl tag doesn't mean anything to a savvy investor. And let's face it folks, that, unfortunately is all these cars have become. I can't remember the last time I heard of a hobbyist laying $80,000-$100,000 on a weekend fun toy. Most would simply clone a Z28 because that's the only affordable way. And thankfully, the body of a six cylinder car was made IDENTICALLY to the body of a Z28...That's the beauty of it all...a future with a hundred thousand Z28s...everybody gets to have one!

Gib The Kid...Freezing in Canada (Home of the documented Z28)


Gib,
I'm glad your purchasing the car. Congrats!!

As far as GM's lack of documentation on these 38-40 year old cars.
They couldn't forsee the value/importance of it then, just as Canada couldn't forsee the value of the import records they kept.

[/QUOTE]"This is a problem that GM created and GM is solely responsible."[/QUOTE]

I personally don't blame GM for the actions of some today. (tag swapping/fake tags)

I doubt the coffee room discussion at the plant was "what if somebody took a cowl tag off that Z over there and put it on a 6 banger?"

By the way, welcome to the site, good to have you.
Doug

Even in 1969, GM recognized that their method of build documentation was woefully inadequate given the scale of their operation, hence the introduction of trim level designation embedded in the VIN.

All I am saying, is that yes, there were around 20,000 Z28s built, but if you want to get the real deal money for it, you better have all the docs/paperwork/"pedigree" stuff that is so prevalent in other collector arenas.
The bottom line is that it is very easy to build a fake Z28 because the parts for camaros are interchangeable...the shell of a Z28 and a "nothing" car are IDENTICAL in build specification...hence, as I like to say, EVERYBODY can own a Z28!
Gib

Not EVERYONE can own a Z28, because even with all things being equal, their were only so many REAL DZ302's built. I can somewhat agree that if you take any body, and add all of the correct parts from true Z-28's, that you would get the same experience from driving it as one would from driving the real deal, but it will never truly be a real Z-28 because only so many came from the factory as such!

Rick...

Did you notice this thread is almost a year old? :)

Rick...

Did you notice this thread is almost a year old? :)


2 years old....Happy New Year 2009! ;)

And those Foose/Pro Touring cars are in the tanker too! Next week shoud be interesting.

Rich