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700R4 no 3rd/4th gear

56K views 115 replies 17 participants last post by  zlek131 
#1 ·
Installed a stage-3 (rated upto 650hp) 700R4 behind a 655HP/672TQ motor. Took it for a test drive and manually shifted the gears without any issues. TV controlled shifts appeared to be fine under normal driving. Everything seemed fine. Couple days later and 5 miles on the new setup I got on it bit while in second, nothing crazy. It wound up pretty good in second and then attempted to shift into 3rd and that's when I saw my RPMs go through the roof with major slippage. I now have no 3rd or 4th gear but only slippage. 1st, 2nd and reverse appear to be fine. I tried several TV cable adjustments and no help. Fluid level is good. While I had the tranny out I replaced the governor on the tranny as I had a stacked 3rd/4th gear issue behind my old motor. I had the tranny dynoed and the issue got resolved. Only other thing I can think of that's new is that I am now running radiator's built in tranny cooler vs before I had an external cooler. Tranny's bottom line (out line) to cooler's bottom fitting while tranny's top line (in line) to cooler's top fitting. I have a t-block with a temp sensor on the out line right before the cooler fitting. Could I be missing something? Did I forget something?

Pretty bummed as I've spent 6 months on this build and it's not looking good...:(
 
#2 ·
A little self diagnosis that I found on the net...The symptoms are identical to mine, NOT GOOD!


Reverse works good. Starts out in first good, shifts normally into second, then right before shifting into third, RPMs go soaring. The vehicle is slipping badly. As the vehicle slows down, it goes back into second. Using those symptoms, lets rule out what can't be bad.

Reverse works good. Look and see what is applied in reverse. We now know that the reverse input clutch, and the lo-reverse clutch is OK, since we have reverse. Cross them out.

Starts out in first good. Go back to the chart. We can see that the forward clutch must be good, the forward sprag must be OK, and the lo-roller clutch should be OK. Cross them out.

Shifts into second normally. Go to the chart. We already know from first gear, that the forward clutch and forward sprag are OK, but now we have the 2-4 band being applied. But since we have second also, then the band is OK.

Now take a look at the difference between second and third. Remember, we lost third gear. Notice the 2-4 band disengages, but the 3-4 clutch applies. By using this chart, we can pinpoint that the 3-4 clutches are slipping. Either they are burnt, or the apply piston has a blown seal, or whatever. So by using this chart, we can also assume that we don't have fourth either.
 
#3 ·
Sounds like you've got about 5 HP too many. You need to ask yourself if you want to try and make a 700R4 live behind that much power. I'd think real hard about a 4L80E if I were you. I know, they're expensive, but so will a rebuild on your 700. Plus, with the 4l80 you could use a paddle shifter. How cool would that be?
 
#4 ·
Sounds like you've got about 5 HP too many. You need to ask yourself if you want to try and make a 700R4 live behind that much power. I'd think real hard about a 4L80E if I were you. I know, they're expensive, but so will a rebuild on your 700. Plus, with the 4l80 you could use a paddle shifter. How cool would that be?
If I were to use another automatic, this is how I would do it. First it would be a strait cut turbo 400 with a real pro built 10 inch converter, then it would be followed up with a 3.08 gear in the rear end, I know this doesnt look sexy to the street rodders out there but this is what gets it done. One has to look no further than Shouldntbetheres fully loaded air cond, 3730 pound 3.08 geared 10 second vette sporting the hyd roller 496, that how I would do it. Right RS SS 502?
 
#8 · (Edited)
Well...it never fails and always comes true, at least with me. When things get really, really bad for me (as they have in the last couple days) something good always happens and it did this time too. First, thank you David (denvervet) as you may have saved the day again. You hooked me up with local shop in town as the owner is one of your clients. I spoke with Keith and the man has been doing transmissions for 25 years. He knows Monster Transmission, has repaired some of their transmissions and actually got paid by Monster. He says they actually make a "decent" transmission. They do some things that he personally would not do or do much differently but at the same time he has seen a lot of other tranny shops do a whole lot worse. I am going to get my transmission to Keith and he will tear it down right in front of me for FREE! We will go through it, identify what's broke, what's about to break and what's done right. After that we will put together a plan as to what's needed in order for this transmission to handle Mark Jones' motor. If I chose not to pursue it, he will only charge me to put the tranny back together so it can be returned to me in one piece. I would say that's more than fair. He told me that he has build these things to handle well over 700hp over and over again. The speculation is that I never had the pain in the butt TV cable setup correctly on my old motor. I have to say that 2nd to 3rd shift at times did not feel right over the last year and a half. At times I would feel like there was a slip, I would then readjust the cable, drive for a while, floor it a week later and the cable would be out of adjustment again. TV cable setup incorrectly will result in toasted 3/4 clutches 9 out of 10 times. So the clutches were more than likely getting slowly burned up over the last year and half. Mark's 496 torque bong came along, one hit later the clutches were ashes. We are going to fix this, get the TV cable dialed in correctly (may require a custom bracket) and call it a day. Good news is I will actually get to learn a little about the internals of a 700R4!

David, thanks again. I got plans this Saturday but if you need help getting that motor in on Sunday, you know my number! :thumbsup: :beers:
 
#9 ·
Matt..sounds like you have found your go to guy re: your 700r4.:hurray:.
I have dual side mounted carbs...talk about a bear setting up the tv cable for the correct geometry.
I gave up and grabbed tci,s constant pressure valve body.The tv cable now just determines shift points ..not line pressure.
This is just a bandaid fix for now,curious as to what mods your builder will do to make a 700r4 live behind a torque monster 496.
My blown big block makes north of 700hp/700ft lbs with MT drag radials and the tci 700r4 is still hangin in there.Most likely do to my stock rear suspension that never hooks.The 2-3 shift at wot still flares a tad with the cpvb..but less than before with auto/manual vb.The fluid is red and no odor.Talk about living on borrowed time here.
Keep us posted..and pick the builders brain.This is an interesting thread for anyone considering the 700r4 behind a high torque bbc.
 
#10 ·
...The 2-3 shift at wot still flares a tad with the cpvb..but less than before with auto/manual vb...
Keep us posted..and pick the builders brain.This is an interesting thread for anyone considering the 700r4 behind a high torque bbc.
Flare up is a perfect way to describe it....yes, I will keep everyone posted on all the findings and mods.
 
#14 ·
Jake, really good info regarding the 4l80E on your website. Wish we had this conversation about a year and half ago before I went the 700R4 route. Still pricey sucker though especially when you add the controller and some options. Based on the numbers I am seeing it's darn close to what it would cost me for a manual 5 speed conversion. Of course the fact of being one 700R4 already into the deal doesn't help either.
 
#17 · (Edited)
OK, so here is the long answer... excuse my ignorance of automatic transmissions and terms.
The builder broke the entire tranny down in front of me. I was there a good hour and half. The 700R4 is trashed and will need an end to end rebuild. 3/4 clutches are toast as expected. Pan had plenty of small metal shavings in it. Gears/"dogs" showed lots of "pitting" (small little holes). A couple parts we pulled were rusted..., yes that's rusted. The Teflon bushings that rides on top of pump had bubbling on it which is typically caused by "arching" due to the lack of ground. He says it never hurts to have too much ground. He recommends running a thick wire from tranny to the frame. The pump shaft had some ware on it. The filter he pulled out of the valve body was clogged with metal shavings on one side. The TQ (torque converter) neck (part that slides on to the shaft) was chewed up pretty good. It was hard to believe the TQ had only 25 or so miles on it. Really never did find where all the debris came from. It could have been TQ but that would require cutting it open... Some parts were good quality and in very good shape.

I point told the guy I did not want to be here in 6 months so can you build the 700 to withstand my current HP. He said it could be done but there was always a "but". We then started talking TH400 and he started to smile while the time on the warranty just went up. He showed me side by side comparison of parts from 700 vs 400. I know I got a lot of money tied up in this 700 so I was willing to overlook a lot but soon common logic took over. Comparing a 700 to 400 is like comparing boys to men. 400 parts steel while 700 were aluminum. Amazing how much thicker and heavier the 400 parts were. The evidence is obvious. After all Monster transmission rates their 700 up to 650hp while their 400 up to 950hp. If I go the 400 route I will need a new TQ and driveshaft but than again I would need a new TQ for a rebuilt 700 as the current TQ is contaminated and he told me not even think about reusing it. I was due for a new driveshaft anyway due to my new increased HP.

I told him I would sleep on it and call him today. He still owes me an estimate on 700 rebuild. I don't know guys, I am starting to lean towards the TH400 but I do love the 700's overdrive. My 3.73 rear would need a 3.08 gear to make this thing work on the highway. That's the combo Mark recommends anyway. I need to find out what the engine can do from a vacuum point of view as that's needed for th400 modulator.
 
#19 ·
Luckily you have many options. Unluckily, none of them are cheap. I'd talk to Jake and see what AOD he recommends to live behind that brute. See if he can build a 2004R to stand up to it. Here's another guy who I'm sure Jake is familiar with who is well known for his 2004R's. Still will require a new driveshat and crossmember. http://www.ckperformance.com/resources/GM2004RTRANSMISSIONS.html Or just get a 4L80E and sleep well at night.
 
#20 ·
Luckily you have many options. Unluckily, none of them are cheap. I'd talk to Jake and see what AOD he recommends to live behind that brute. See if he can build a 2004R to stand up to it. Here's another guy who I'm sure Jake is familiar with who is well known for his 2004R's. Still will require a new driveshat and crossmember. http://www.ckperformance.com/resources/GM2004RTRANSMISSIONS.html Or just get a 4L80E and sleep well at night.
4L80E X2:yes:
 
#22 · (Edited)
I looked at the 4l80E yesterday as the tranny builder had one. It's a Monster and I have no doubt it will handle whatever power you throw at it. The question is at what cost? The unit is huge and I mean huge! The torque converter is simply gigantic. It made my 700 look like a little baby. I have no doubt the tranny will hold my HP and then some but I also know it will make my car heavy and sacrifice HP. Not everyone races so some wasted HP or few 10th's of your time is not important. Having the OD is the main thing. The sucker is pricy by the time you add up all the required hardware.

At this point in time, I think I am going with a TH400. Everyone I talked to agrees that 400 hands down is a much stronger tranny than 700. Mark recommends TH400 with 3.08 rear. I have 3.73 now and will see how annoying they are with TH400.

As to Monster Transmission...I emailed them a while back and have not heard anything. Not even "go away and leave us alone...", nothing. I am done with them. I will simply take $2K loss and walk away. It seems they were very excited about using my videos all over their marketing stuff (and you'll see my car all over their stuff) but not so excited about calling me back or helping me out. They promised all kinds of "stuff" in exchange for the videos but I never got anything or heard anything.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Matt,
Most of the internals on a 4L80E are the same as a T400. The torque converter on the stock 4L80E is huge, and heavy. You will replace the converter with one that is the same size that you would use in your T400. The only weight that you would be adding is for the OD components and maybe a little oil. There is a guy that runs here with a wheel standing 9 second full size van that runs a 4L80E. They are a bit pricey, but after running a T400 for years, It really makes a huge difference to have the OD. I just removed my 4L80E for a stick...slower most likely, but more fun!
 
#24 ·
I hate hearing about people who get scammed by the online transmission places but I hear about it all the time.

My personal opinion, you'll get tired of the Th400 and 3.73's pretty quick. My Chevelle has that combo and while it's OK for around town and the dragstrip it will immediately get tiring on the highway.

700-R4 is the wrong unit for your application. A conciencious builder would have never sold it to you.

200-4R can be built to live but it's going to be expensive.

A 4L80E fits the 1st Gen fairly well. It's very rugged as you've seen.
An aftermarket converter will be much smaller and lighter than the stock 4L80E piece. We haven't seen any measurable power loss going from a TH400 to a 4L80E in a 10 second Camaro, that car actually picked up some.

I'm running a special on the 4L80Es with a controller, converter, and shipping right now so check out the website. You might also need a mechanical speedo tailhousing depending on what you are using for a speedo.

TH400 is going to be the cheapest option but I think you'll want OD and in the end it will be wasted money.
 
#28 ·
Yes, 400 it is. I will keep my current 3.73 rear and see how long I can put up with it. I can always swap to 3.08 down the road. It was going to be $1500 to have the 700r4 rebuilt. The 400 will be $1200. I went the 400 route as we all agree you are on borrowed time with a 700 and 500+ HP. I don't want to have that doubt in the back of your mind as you romp it and you're not confident about your transmission. The builder is going to beef up various components. I will get a list later on. I left my $2,000 Monster 700r4 Transmission as a $200 core trade in.:sad: Time to move on...
 
#31 ·
GO 4L80E....... I bet you were told to get straight cut gears...... hmmm

Doesn't Mark build TH400's now? why don't you let him build it for ya.... It says he sells TH400's with straight cut gears..... That would be great, he built your motor and tranny....... He can also install your rear gears too... You can keep it all together....:thumbsup:
 
#32 ·
Actually what Mark did tell me is that his motor would spit out my 700r4 tranny first time around the block. He was wrong, as it took 2 times around the block before the tranny bit the dust. (I didn't romp on it the first time out :D) I wish I would've listened to him as I probably could have sold my 700, used the money to buy a 400, ended up doing one tranny install (instead of two and one uninstall), would be driving my car this weekend to the a car show with a lot more $$$ in my wallet. I guess we all live and learn... Good thing is that I am pretty savvy when it comes to cars and actually enjoy working on them. So popping a motor/tranny/rearend in/out is no a big deal for me.
 
#33 ·
I'm NOT a fan of the 700-R4 transmission, but your problem was more of a builder quality issue than anything.
I have a 700-R4 behind a Ramjet 502 in a customer's '55 Chevy. It's been there for several years now.
It's not my trans of choice for that application but we worked with what the customer had been sold previously.
I much prefer the 4L80E for an OD auto in anything over 500 HP/TQ. Under that I like the 200-4R.

A properly built 700-R4 should have lasted more than 1 or 2 blocks.
 
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