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Auto to manual swap

10K views 58 replies 9 participants last post by  ks3racing 
#1 ·
I bought a basket case,partially restored 68,finished project with a 406 and a 350 turbo.13yrs later I am changing to 4 speed,and find the cross shaft does not line up to pivot ball in block!do I have wrong frame to engine stands?I have over an inch of clearance with a HEI Dist to firewall?where can I find #'s for the frame stands and pictures?
 
#2 ·
Re: auto to manual swap

Big Block frame stands move the engine forward 3/4" and 1/2" to the passenger side. Is that what you have or is the pivot ball in the wrong spot on your engine ? 1" clearance with an HEI does say that your engine is too far forward.
 
#4 ·
Re: auto to manual swap

It is hard to tell with the engine in the car. Like the last post see if your engine is sitting offset to pass side. Small block and big block look alot alike. The only ones that I know right off the bat are the cowel induction small block ones "they have 4 spot weld looking dimples on the top of each one". Placement of the heater core may help, big block came out of the box, and small block came out of the firewall. If it comes out of the heaterbox they might be big block. Might look in to a big block pivit ball I think it came on a plate bolted to the block instead of screwing the ball in to the block. This might be a fix without taking the engine out. I had a camaro with a plate with the ball and it worked. I did not put it on , it was on when I got the car. Not sure if it was big block, but I have seen that set up on some.
 
#6 ·
Re: auto to manual swap

the cowel induction small block ones "they have 4 spot weld looking dimples on the top of each one".
That's a new one... those are actually 1969 302/350 frame mounts. Cowl induction had nothing to do with the mounts, it was the 8" harmonic balancer that required different frame mounts. In 1967 and 68 they used different engine mounts for this. These were not interlocking mounts and they switched to new interlocking mounts on high performance small blocks and big blocks in 1969.

The ball stud was in the block for all 67-69 Camaro's. I think they just came out with the bolt on when an engine from an automatic car was swapped in.
 
#5 ·
Re: auto to manual swap

Measure with a tape measure, from the air cleaner stud to each fender to see if the engine is offset. If it is close to on center (same measurement) They are small block mounts. If your measurements are 1" different, you have big block stands.

You may be able to cure the problem with a big block z-bar and a frame mounted ball stud.
 
#7 ·
Tom my bad. I thought that the 69 302 and 350 " COWL INDUCTION only " needed the frame mounts with the four dimples , so that the cowl induction air cleaner gasket sealed against the hood. I'm still learning this is my first Z and it was missing alot of parts when I saved it from the crusher. All of my other Camaro s wer big block cars. I guess that the guy at Ricks just took me for a ride, I did'nt know any better. Thanks I'm learning new things about these cars every day. Sorry if my post confused any one.
 
#11 ·
If you change the framestands you might have to change the transmission crossmember and the radiator shroud too.

A simpler solution would be to use a big block z-bar and mounting.

How much do you want to change ?
 
#9 ·
You can get stands from Ricks, NPD, Camaro Central, Clasic Industries or just check ebay.
 
#10 ·
No problem... just for your info.

The interlocking "tall and Narrow" engine mounts were the Hi-perf mounts. (302,350's and 396).

The non-interlocking "short and wide" engine mounts were the Lo-perf mounts used on 307's and 327's.

The Energy Suspension poly "short and wide" engine mounts are interlocking.
 
#13 ·
Also, FWIW, big block Z-bar mounts to subframe in exactly the same place and way as the small block unit, and also fits exactly the same (roughly parallel to firewall) as a small block bar. The BBC Z-bar is a bit longer and the lower arm is a bit different. But otherwise, the block side pivot ball is in roughly the same position when installed on the correct mounts for either engine (likewise for L6, too).

So, there is a big block z-bar; there is no special mounting... A big block bar in your current setup probably will not even reach the block pivot ball, and if it did, it would be crooked in at least the horizontal plane (= bind city).
 
#14 ·
Sorry, Eric you are misinformed on the z-bar.

The small block z bar is mounted to the frame by a small stud.



The big Block z bar is longer and there is a pivot ball on the frame and engine, allowing the z bar to sit at an angle due to the engine pivot ball being 3/4" farther forward.



 
#22 ·
So that patronizing "sorry, you're wrong" wasn't supposed to set me off? I'm sorry, but I know you are very active here and give a lot of advice... But when you say things so definitively and with little pictures with circles and arrows, and a paragraph on the back of each on, explainin what each one was (not too late for a little "Alice's Restaurant" reference), and say things like a small block z-bar has a fixed stud on the end... And that a 1st gen BBC z-bar sits at an angle, folks start to question your advice.

You and I have butted heads on 1st gen BBC install info before, and even when I have bothered Jerry M. to clarify what I understand to be true, and have tried to get you to understand things like z-bar mounting, you go back to passing on erroneous info.

And when I try to get you to think it through, about details like if the bar was meant to be installed crooked, why would the linkage holes remain perpendicular and the rod ends 90 degrees, you just don't address that at all.

So I am not ranting. I just get tired of trying to explain. I installed my BBC and manual the way the AIM, Jerry's book, personal close up examinations of OE installs, etc. I've done a lot of research, and have plenty of hands on BBC and BBC installs in 1st gens. Likewise with SBC. I don't know where you learned what you think you know.

Mods, you can delete this if you want; I would have PM'ed if I cared enough, but I just don't like erroneous info being spoken as gospel.

Likewise to Ron, the OP, I hope your work is going okay and you know what you need to know. Post back or PM if you need more.
 
#15 ·
I am not going to bother digging out the OE SBC z bar in my shed because I can't lift the crate it's in while on crutches. But 100% it has a pivot on frame side.

Look at HB City SBC z bar. Pivot on frame side. I trust their part over Ricks/Eckler import crap. http://www.heartbeatcitycamaro.com/store/product/17649/Clutch-bellcrank-all-SB/

Look at Year One SBC z bar. Pivot on frame side. https://www.yearone.com/Product/1967-81-camaro/ru1806

I would almost bet that the "fixed" SBC bar end in your pic is just a shipping plug not removed for the photo.

I wish you would stop with the misinfo on BBC installs, but I guess I am doomed to refight the battles as they come up. If a BBC bar was crooked like you say, it would not fit in the same space that the SBC bar does.

It would also be likely to bind; think about what you keep saying. Are the upper and lower linkage holes on BBC unit drilled perpendicular, or at an angle? Every piece that attaches (upper clutch rod, lower swivel for SBC, lower rod for BBC) all go through holes at 90 degree angle and get a simple pin to secure. Are the arms off the tube twisted to allow these components to connect this way? NO!

Both z bars mount the same way; the BBC z bar installed on a correctly installed BBC is not visibly cocked forward. It is same alignment as SBC and L6 bars.

If you can't read the Year One and HBC descriptions and realize you are wrong and don't replace your above image with the shipping plug installed to keep the frame side pivot ball stud in place on the ride over in a giant container ship, well then I give up.
 
#20 · (Edited)
From Eric's rant :

I would almost bet that the "fixed" SBC bar end in your pic is just a shipping plug not removed for the photo.

***Maybe it is and maybe it is not ! I agree the links you have posted, do show a pivot ball.***

It would also be likely to bind; think about what you keep saying. Are the upper and lower linkage holes on BBC unit drilled perpendicular, or at an angle? Every piece that attaches (upper clutch rod, lower swivel for SBC, lower rod for BBC) all go through holes at 90 degree angle and get a simple pin to secure. Are the arms off the tube twisted to allow these components to connect this way? NO!

***They do not need to be drilled at an angle, that is why it is mounted on pivot balls. The rest of the linkage has enough slop in it to allow the slight twisting. We are only talking about a 5° angle for the BBC ***

Both z bars mount the same way; the BBC z bar installed on a correctly installed BBC is not visibly cocked forward. It is same alignment as SBC and L6 bars.

***If this is not the case, then how does it magically account for a BBC that is mounted approximately 3/4" forward than that of SBC ?***
 
#16 ·
Whoa ! Eric, buddy take a deep breath ! This is not a competition ! We are both here to help people. I checked out your links and you are correct that those also show a pivot ball. I am not sure if the one I pictured just has a shipping plug though. Maybe somebody could help us answer that one. I was led to believe that all the small blocks were "fixed" and evidently that is not the case !

I will admit when I am wrong and I never claimed to know everything ! Just explain when I am wrong and we can go on ! I am not sure what else you think I am telling people that is not correct, but let me know !
 
#17 ·
The small block is also a pivot ball, it is just shipped pre-installed, so it looks liek a "fixed" stud...Leared this when I did my manual conversion a couple years ago...
 
#21 ·
Ball on both ends and one grease fitting. Teflon like bowls that fit inside the tube for the ball to fit in " hold it snug not floppy" . Works just like the ball and socket of your feamer bone and hip socket.
 
#23 ·
pulled engine,measured stands,looked at all pics I could find and found they were the correct stands! But they were reversed! now engine is centered and to close to firewall with HEI without riggin(BFH) so will go with diff dist! Problem solved -Wrong now bellhousing hits firewall on drivers side, also shift linkage hits tunnel. tail shaft is centered between frame rails, Did someone install new floor and get it half inch to pass side? about to put auto back in.
 
#24 ·
Do you have a SBC transmission crossmember or a BBC transmission crossmember ? They have to match your frame stands.

I thought you said your engine was offset to the passenger side ? By reversing frame stands it would offset the engine to the driver's side and be way to far forward. Post pictures of what you have.

What frame stands do you have ?
 
#25 ·
TJS69. your thinking if they are in correct and you reverse them! it moved 2" back and centered engine. stands were totaly over crossmember and now over hang to the rear a bit. trans crossmember is the flat(not tubular) and still bolts up fine in rear holes in subframe. Thanks again for all help!
 
#27 ·
Well, if you are happy... we are all happy ! :)
 
#30 ·
If you have GM made frame stands, there will be a part number stamped into them. Were the frame stands the same height ? Big Block stands are different heights. The driver's side stand is about 1/2" taller on BBC stands. SBC stands should be approximately the same height. It originally sounded like you had big block stands, because you had the correct offset. Now you say that you reversed the stands, and now it is on center. That would indicate SBC stands. So, which do you have ?

Below, are pictures of the cut out (Bolt) area of the transmission crossmember. The top crossmember is for a small block. The bottom one is a big block.



 
#31 ·
engine stands are same height,crossmember is oval in access hole.even without the crossmember bolts in,you can not push engine sideways to get clearance at bellhousing or linkage! tail shaft is dead center between sub frame rails. I do not know if floorboards have been replaced,but have a few battle scars and an extra screw hole or so! maybe installed sheet metal off sides?
 
#32 · (Edited)
We are really going to need pictures to see what you have.

Here is a picture of the bent tab on a 67/68 big block stands the 307/327 mounts also have these tabs.



The 1969 302/350 frame stands do not have these tabs and could be reversed.



These mounts are easily identified by the 4 divets (spot welds) on each top.

My '69 has these mounts and the engine is positioned with the following measurements. They can be affected by how the fenders etc are hung.

 
#33 ·
I believe that the 1969 BBC frame stands also, do not have the tabs. They however do not have the top spot welds. They are made for the tall and narrow engine mounts that are approximately 2 3/8" wide, as are the '69 302/350's.

 
#34 ·
Ha! those tabs did not stop previous owner from installing incorrect.LOL! but my engine crossmember has what appears to be a factory welded tab directly behind top mounting holes for the stands, that also kept from seating properly even when I reversed them. could I have a Firechicken subframe with a Camaro vin?
Have 25 3/8" from carb stud to fender on drivers side-25 1/8" on pass. sorry I am not much on taking pics. Thank You!
 
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