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ZL-1 Car #66 Engine For Sale

24K views 83 replies 26 participants last post by  RPOZ11 
#1 ·
#39 ·
What makes a real 1969 ZL1 Camaro? Is it just the vin plate with its paperwork or is it more then that?? Honestly I can't understand how someone can put a real ZL1 vin tag on a say 1969 307 Body car and call it a REAL ZL1 Camaro because he has paperwork on that vin plate,thats just freaking nuts! My hats off to all the Real Bodied 1969 ZL1 Camaro owners,those are real cars!
 
#44 ·
Rebodies are a joke,and the restorers,owners should be in handcuffs and the cars issued a state VIN tag and run over the auction blocks as VIN tamper cars. If any of us did that even on a titleless junker that we didnt have papers for,we would probably be in need of bail money and be out of a car.

That said,I can see why with such big money at stake,the forgers are getting better. I had to replace the chunk of firewall on one of my cars that previously had the a/c box area smoothed out. I wanted to make sure that there was no question that the car was mine,and I was even the one who removed the chunk of firewall 20 years ago when I didnt know better,so I know the car is legit. I searched high and low for stamps in the correct fonts,measured the distance between the numbers,made a 1/8" thick steel plate with notches carved to show even placement of the numbers. I got lucky in that the on the donor piece only the last 4 digits of the partial were different. Even funnier yet was that my car is a 73 and the VIN started with 13N108xxx and the donor piece was out of an early production 74 yet the VIN started with 13N102xxx. So GM even made a mistake on the hidden VIN since they didnt update the year designation until at least after the at least the first 2000 cars were made in the 74 model year. I welded over the numbers that needed to be replaced,ground that smooth,and place my plate on the front of the area that needed to be stamped and a 6x6 plate behind the area so that the stamps wouldnt dimple the metal,then I hammered over the remaining numbbers so that any distortion in those numbers would match the distortion in the new numbers. I butt welded the donor piece in,ground the welds smooth,filled as many imperfections as possible with weld,then hammer and dollied it straight,blasted the entire area inside and out,then covered it in a special high build brown oxide/correct gloss primer that I mixed myself. I defy anybody to tell it was done without using a very destructive investigation. If a schmuck like me with a 110 mig welder and a flap disc grinder can do it,then a real expert should be able to do it at least as well.

I know this story didnt have much to do with this block,but it just showcases how even a rebody could be done and made to be undetectable even to the trained eye. Of course it helps to have a date code correct same assembly plant donor body so that the sheet metal dates and stamping plants are correct for that car. With million dollar cars at stake,it is only a matter of time until trim tag and VIN tag repops get much more accurate. So basically the market may be limited if good frauds begin to show up on the market.
 
#45 ·
Also,as a joke,I decided to restamp the block. I have the born with 307 engine,but put a date code correct 400 small block in it(the date just happened to match by chance). I remove the existing numbers using a belt sander with corse,then finer grades of paper,only adding a slight bevel to the stamp area where it protrudes off the deck. I then made a plate that located using 2 head bolts,cut it to match the areas that I wanted to stamp,even offseting the areas as to not make it look like it was straight across,and even making the VIN stamp crooked. I then located the exact correct size and font stamps and restamped the block. I had some fun by looking through the siffix codes and figuring out what code GM might had used for a 400 small block and automatic in a Camaro,and used that code. So of course it would never be mistaken as legit or a ghost 400 car with an F in the VIN anyway. But again,if this schmuck with a belt sander and acess to a variety of stamps can do it then a forger should have no problem. The muscle car collector hobby may take a hit in car values as the forgeries become increasingly accurate. Its a sad but true fact,and I want to make it clear that I myself would never ever ever carry out fraud to present something to be anything other then it really bonafide is,especially to make a profit,I just see all this stuff about restamping things and like to try my hand at it to see how good my workmanship is. Even if offered money to do it for fradulent reasons,I swear to God I would never knowingly do it,so please dont go on a tirade about me being a scammer. I have owned my Camaro for 23 years,and my Firebird for about 18 years and plan to die with my both of them,so nothing I have done with them will ever amount to anything.
 
#46 ·
I also have a factory restamped engine in my garage that I got for free from another member here. Again,it is a practically worthless 307,but it does clearly show how GM themselves did odd things back in the day. If you are wondering why I bothered to seek out a 307,it was because I was thinking about building a 307 for the PHR Engine Masters Challenge,with a trick combo I wanted to run using 283 pistons and short 400 rods to make an engine with a favorable design to the required test speeds. :)
 
#49 ·
The rebody debate will go on forever and I can see where at some point the body is just so junk that the car should be junked but instead another body is used to save it. I would rather see that then have the car gone forever. The problem I have is not disclosing it.

I also have no idea about Dan's rethink my playbook comment.
I tend to agree. If it must be done,it would be better to do it with all real metal from the era. If somebody got lucky enough to find a date code correct,and color correct mint body,it would be better to see the car with the real "warts and all" body then see somebody try and fix it with chinese steel,or NOS pieces,and duplicate the warts. If a rare car is a nearly 100% original car,with most of it's interior,driveline,subframe,trim,and even some body parts remaining on a very rusty body,it is a viable option. As far as I am concerned,it doesnt matter at that point if the body were restamped,it is probably most real then half the "restored" cars out there. You are one of the few guys who is known to be a good buyer for real original and rare cars,and everything you own is typically regarded as bonafide real beyond a shadow of a doubt,but there are still many scammers and many unknowlageable victims out there. Some guy paying an extra 10 grand for a Camaro that was really an SS396/325 car but was dolled up and restamped as an L-78 car is bad,but guys resurecting long gone engine blocks,VIN and trim tags out of dust to make million dollar cars is a real problem. The day a guy like you, or Jerry M fall victim to a really good scammer,it might just turn the Camaro collector market upside down.
 
#48 ·
Rich, Great info you took the time to post.The way you wrote it anyone can understand it. William,Bill G CRG site has a Dr friend who has a real Born With bodied ZL1 427 Camaro,its a Silver car that was sold at Hauser Chevrolet Bethlehem PA! Rare Aluminum Sold at Bethlehem! So what is a real ZL1 vin plate worth since the Original Born With ZL1 body was destroyed and crushed??
 
#51 ·
Rich, Again you took the time to explain your personal feelings about a Rebodied car.Anyone can understand that.I thank you for that. Now what is a Real ZL1 vin worth,just the vin?

Who knows what it one is worth. One issue is that these plates had to come from somewhere. What if the plate came off a car that was hacked into a race car,but the real car still exist,and maybe even has the hidden VINs? Same goes for the engine. What about some of those cars that were supposedly stolen off the dealer lot when new,and somehow turned up in restored original condtion,right after there were rumors of somebody reproducing VIN tags?

One example is a ZL-1 VIN tag out there with the owner of the car from the 70's. I believe the owner sent the car out to be backhalfed into a super stocker back then,and when he saw the car at the shop shortly after that the shop had cut out the entire floor and undercarrage rendering the car useless for the class. Supposedly the owner didnt want to pay for the work,and the shop owner wouldnt release the car,so the car owner walked into the shop and yanked the tags off the car. The shop oner supposedly sold the car anyway,and it went on to lead a long life as a race car before vanishing into obsurity,and the owner of the tags was on the hunt for the car. I believe that was in the northwest a few years back,and havent heard much about the car since. Who knows what could happen there. The situation is well know,as is the number of the car,and the owner seemed to have good intentions of reuniting the car and the tags.
 
#52 ·
Rich,Thats the Chuck S Seattle Washington ZL1 Camaro you speak of. Chuck is a great guy,true car guy and has been honest and opened about that car. You do know that there was a Certain guy that ran a AD in National Dragster back in the Mid 80's looking for owners of these ZL1 cars.He posted the Known vin numbers and was trying to buy the cars.If he couldn't buy the car he would make a nice offer on the title and vin. Theres people that know this but I'll keep this info off the open internet who he is and where hes from.
 
#53 ·
Rich,You'll like this since your from Jersey City NJ not far from Bloomfield NJ. Years back Chuck S bought a real deal rare 1970 SS396/375HP L78 4 speed from Bloomfield NJ. I believe it had the Split Front bumper RS option and was unrestored! You can find Chuck on NastyZ28. I remember talking to Chuck years back on the phone about it.
 
#64 ·
John,The 1969 ZL1 Rebodie you were a party to was that recently? I know legally you have to watch what you say but can post any info without getting yourself in trouble with current owner? Thanks for your info,
It wasn't a "ZL1" - sorry if I confused anyone with that statement.
It was (and is legally) still a 1969 Camaro. And was (and still is) a performance model as designated by GM at time of manufacture.
The body was completely unrestorable due to major issues with rust as well as terrible previous attempts to replace panels with salvaged parts and fabrication - once removed it was quickly realized that the only way around this issue was a replacement body.
I was a friend of the owner of this vehicle at the time of the above discovery, and agreed to assist him in locating and working through the procedures necessary to repair this vehicle with a replacement body.
I know where the vehicle is to this day, know the two owners since the work was completed (by other resources as well as myself - my specific focus being making it possible to tell if inspected by knowledgeable sources).
The vehicle is a very nice driver restoration - but NOT a numbers vehicle or in any way an attempt to make it one.
Doing so would have constituted a blatant fraud, and as such would be an illegal use of the existing DMV laws.

I would and am not 'legally' worried about what I say - I will not disclose numbers on anyone's vehicle without their permission or stated approval to do so.
I purposely do not keep the numbers handy, but could recreate them from photo sources with the owners permission if needed and/or if challenged to do so legally.

Guy's, this isn't a game. Altering/changing VIN's is a felony.
It IS NOT illegal :noway:
Never has been in this state. Dating back to when I started restoring vehicles in the late 60's ...
If you think so, I would suggest you become familiar with the current California Vehicle Code laws governing this issue.
You might specifically be interested in reading and understanding of section 10750 (b) ;)
The key word in the statutes is FRAUD - if you are not intent on committing same, then it is fully legal ...
You might also be able to find past threads where I've specifically discussed and written about the legality of changing a VIN and/or other specific manufactures markings between one body component and another.

I can assure you that is is done routinely in some vehicle circles, and with full knowledge, co-operation and validation of the CaDMV and law enforcement :yes:
 
#56 ·
Guy's, this isn't a game. Altering/changing VIN's is a felony.
 
#58 ·
Fred,Thank you for saying that so Team Camaro members can see that. This is one of the reasons I'm getting out of the musclecar stuff,seems certain guys are alright with rebodieing rare musclecars,I'm not!! I personally hate rebodied ,restampers ,protecto plate makers,cowel tag makers ,window sticker makers,Chevrolet invoice makers using a old invoice and old type writers. I love these cars because I grew up on them in the 70's when the only value was how bad it ran ,how bad it sounded and how bad it looked!! Its too much about money now and the "Knighted" person who is Blessed with ownership of some Made cars. Bunch of BS I hate it. Dan
 
#60 ·
Rich, To me a rebodie is when you take the original vin off whats left of the original car and put it on the new body. 2 cars come in the shop one come out.Some Restoration shops will do it to save tons of money for that current owner wanting a faster cheaper restoration. I know one car I'm keeping my eye on that I know they did it to.They brought a rust free body up from New Mexico years ago. Profit and margin plays into it. Again like the Team Camaro member said in a prior post its a felony to remove the vin from the original body. Maybe thats another reason they don't disclose it. Theres guys removing the entire sheetmetatal cover where vin is attached to so not to disturb the sheetmetal and factory revits.You have to remove the windsheild to see that one.
 
#71 ·
Rich, To me a rebodie is when you take the original vin off whats left of the original car and put it on the new body. 2 cars come in the shop one come out.Some Restoration shops will do it to save tons of money for that current owner wanting a faster cheaper restoration. I know one car I'm keeping my eye on that I know they did it to.They brought a rust free body up from New Mexico years ago. Profit and margin plays into it. Again like the Team Camaro member said in a prior post its a felony to remove the vin from the original body. Maybe thats another reason they don't disclose it. Theres guys removing the entire sheetmetatal cover where vin is attached to so not to disturb the sheetmetal and factory revits.You have to remove the windsheild to see that one.
I guess some might question how you would restore a car like say a well used old race car. Lets just say that somebody is walking thru the pits at E-town and sees a tube chassis low rider 69 Camaro with one of the ZL-1 VINs in it? All thats left is the roof skin,outer rockers,upper part of the cowl,tail light panel and the top half of the quarters? No firewall,no floor,frame,inner structure ect,fiberglass lower quarters ect. How would somebody fix that car? Would it be better to buy 1000# of Chinese steel? Would it be more correct if somebody found a full running and driving car made in the same week,complete with fenders,doors,front subframe,interior ect? Like I said in another post,you could do a rebody,and have a "warts and all" car with the correct dumdum blobs and overspray patterns on sheet metal pieces that have all the correct date and plant stamps in them or you could try and duplicate it with generic metal. I know to some,the opinion is that the ZL-1 I described should have the VIN registered as a destroyed car that can never be restored. With $500,000 going for a certain famous old race car that had exactly the same amount of surviving original metal,but I wont go there.
 
#62 ·
Camaros are all Camaros but when you are talking about a ZL1 you're on another level. Top of the heap and 6 to 7 figures at stake. There needs to be unquestionable documentation and and verified by reputable people. It's almost crazy of the lengths that people will go to forge a car like this. This much money at stake and a strong muscle car market makes for troubled waters.
 
#65 ·
John,I have a Rare 1 of 617 1968 Chevy 2 Nova SS396/375HP L78 Factory 4 speed (Now Custom Built 427 L88) and its a original California Black License Plate car.It still has its 1968 CA Assigned plates.I bought it back in 2000 from Damon E of Stockton California.When I got it in Whitehouse NJ back in 2000 I took detailed photos of body,interior and engine to document condition and originally.I then hired a Profressional restoration shop in Bethlehem PA to do the Frame off restoration.Again detailed photographs of Frame off thru entire process to document this Original Born With Panel car. George S the restoration guy and his long time worker Rob could not believe how Rust Free Rock solid this California car was. This being said why did your California car have so much rust?? Was it from another State? Did you have past history of car? Guys will flip titles to bury history on cars.
 
#67 ·
Nice! Putting that all aluminum 427 into your Camaro,Nova,Corvette or Chevelle you save 200LBs of Dead weight on the Front End. That motor should have a GM 7115 Cross Drilled Nitrated Crank. 7115's were ZL1/L88. I would love to see it with a Set of Polished Mickey Thompson Finned valve covers for the early 70's back in the Day look. Not a bad price. I use to own 001 TRACO ZL1 427 Motor and came real close to putting it in my Reedman Chevrolet 1968 Chevy 2 Nova SS396/375 Factory 4 speed Special Option 410 posi car. Just never had enough money to hold onto certain items. I needed to buy a house,more important.Ricks Camaro in GA has it.
 
#72 ·
Rich,You know Joe Spino SR of Jersey City had a RS/SS 1969 Copo 427 Camaro. It saw very little road time by the original owner.Joe put a 1 piece Fiberglass non RS nose on it,Mopar 4 speed,Dana 60 in it. Joe left the RS tail panel lights in it. Motor was eventually moved back cutting out the firewall . Back Halve was done by Bob Daurenheim a well known in NJ chassis builder .. How would you restore that car if found,back to Cookie Cutter Copo Look or Born Free Copo Dragcar?? I know what I would do. Joe,Bob and Tony are still around to identify their work.How about this the Old MiMi dragcar was found and back in Levi Holmes of Newark NJ's hands.That car was from NY and bought by Levi. Car ran a Cam Am ZL1 427 Tunnel Ram motor.Very well known car.Levi called me and told me he found it. I stand by my opinion of a rebodie in my prior post,vin taken off whats left of the original body and plucked down on say a original 1969 307 Camaro body. For some that are into a bigger profit margin faster resto thats the way they go. For me the car died when the original vin was taken off the original body and placed on the original 1969 Camaro 307 body.Theres a handfull of restoration shops that have that have the expertise to perform saving a old Dragcar that was aX-55, X-33,X-77,X-66,X-22,X-11 COPO,X-44 COPO . Ownership history is extremely important as you know by your research on Grumpy Jenkins 1970 427 Camaro. Is that Grumpy car real Rich?Oh yeah theres a Motion 1968 Camaro SS427 Car found that was a dragcar its whole life and is like what you stated. Would you rebodie that whats left of that car? Its faster easier cheaper to do it that way,but like a couple Team Camaro members said its a Felony to remove the vin tag from one body and put it on the other body.I guess thats why some guys avoid the rebodie issue when they find their over paid 1969 307 Camaro with the ZL1 vin is one. Rich does it make sense?
 
#73 ·
Rich,Even though some say a ZL1 Vin plate is worth a 1/2 Million dollars so you need to save it even at the cost of putting it on a 1969 307 Camaro its just down right wrong.Your really driving a 1969 307 Camaro with a rare ZL1 vin plate.Too many times they write novels to explain why this car was rebodied but not simply putting vin plate was taken off the original body and put on a 1969 307 Camaro body.I laugh at this stuff on these Historic Rare cars that were one of the Rebodie Series cars. Did you here about the Yenko that they found in a basement? How do you get a Yenko in a basement? Think about it. Is it a true story It was told to me by a guy that use to post on the Yenko site.
 
#74 ·
Ok so if its wrong to take a vin tag from a ZL1 and put it on a plane Jane 69 307 coupe body what about putting the tag on a Dynacorn 69 body? Is starting with a pre-assembed body any different then buying individual repop pieces and assembling the body yourself?
 
#75 ·
Ok so if its wrong to take a vin tag from a ZL1 and put it on a plane Jane 69 307 coupe body what about putting the tag on a Dynacorn 69 body? Is starting with a pre-assembed body any different then buying individual repop pieces and assembling the body yourself?

Thats kind of like saying what if you carfully drilled out all the spot welds to remove the entire firewall and dash panel on the original rare car,and then installed those panels on a date code correct donor body? You wouldnt have to remove the VIN tag or trim tag rivets,you are also moving ALL of the hidden VIN numbers,does that mean it isnt a felony? What if you sawzalled the car at the roof pillars and rockers and put the back of a base model car to the front of a rare car? Since the VIN plates all say its the rare car,would the fact that 300# of metal came from a donor car but only 75# of metal was born with the VIN tags make it legit?
 
#76 ·
One thing I find iteresting. A few years back,a TV show was doing a segment on building a 69 Firebird convertable into a Trans Am convertable tribute. They stripped the body down and there was nothing left of it. The job was being sponsored by Year One,so they sent the body shell back to Year One for their "experts" to fix. When the car came back on the show,the body was all smooth in black electro primer from end to end,except all the spot welds the hold on the upper cowl and dash metal,they were all shiny or covered in weld dust. Could it have been an more obvious?
 
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