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Panel alignment...gaps

38K views 75 replies 12 participants last post by  makoshark 
#1 ·
I have been really struggling trying to get these gaps right. The fender to door gap only has the top bolts in place and shimmed to the max basically. It hard to see in the pictures, but at the top that is a 1/4" gap. It's too close to the door as the door rubs the fender once opened 3/4 of the way. All of these panels are original to the car except the quarter panel. However, the quarter is NOS. The rocker panel was never replaced. Never mind all the dirt and dust on the car.

Any help is greatly appreciated and welcomed!
 

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#3 ·
looks like bottom of fender needs to come out to be flush with door. Door and rocker look to be lined up ok. Lots of threads to search on this topic. It is a slow process and little adjustments can make a big difference. Take your time and don't rush it....this is a very important point in your build before paint. Get it all right now before you even consider painting.

take some pics of where door is interferring with fender if find yourself stuck.
 
#4 ·
Door to rocker gap is absolutely perfect. I know the bottom of the fender needs to come out. I'm concerned at the moment about the top of the fender to door gap. I can't add anymore shims to the top fender bolt. It's maxed out and the top of the fender still could come up another 1/8" to match to the door height as well as move outward about another 1/8" to match the door
 
#7 · (Edited)
Photo 6 shows the door needs to come forward another 1/8 inch. You want the leading edge of the door to line up with the rocker. Then adjust your fenders. My 2 cents.

Not necesarily true, some cars are and others aren't. Quarter to door gap determines placement of the door. Theoretically, if the door is 3/16" shy of the rocker leading edge, fender will be butted up to rocker leaving a 3/16 door-fender gap. Either way is within factory tolerance.

Jeremy, you say you can't add more shims, maxed out at the top. How thick is the shim pack ? Are you sure the door don't want to be moved down ? Almost looks like the bodylines don't match perfectly at the door-quarter ?...

edit; I think you should mount the bottom of the fender too. It may be sagging at the top and will "perk up" with the added rigidity when mounted at the bottom.
 
#6 ·
The picture does appear to show the door needs to come forward a bit. I'll check it tomorrow and see if it indeed does need to move forward. I thought I had addressed that when I aligned the doors so long ago, but may have not. It's difficult to get the pictures to show what I'm seeing and feeling. As with the gap at the rocker, the picture shows the door is not aligned with it, but in fact that gap is perfect.
 
#8 ·
I have about 3/8" of shims on the top cowl bolt. I have 5/16" of shims in the fender bolt in the top door jamb area. The quarter is in epoxy primer and does not have any high build primer on them at this time. I have not sanded any on the body line to help define it. I have on the fender and door so I can see it better while aligning. I have checked and checked the door to quarter body line and it appears they are aligned. I guess I need to sand on the quarter to define that line better and check the alignment again. Looks like I need to play with the door alignment more. I thought I had it aligned the best I could get it. I can put a stir paddle in the door to rocker gap at all lengths and get the same fitment.
 
#9 ·
OK, I'm just throwing some possibilities out there. As I mentioned first off, pictures can be decieving. You're there to see it in person.

I'd say there may be times when 1/2" of shims may be needed....and probably acceptable by factory standards. The threads on the bolts should be long enough.

btw, I edited previous reply about the same as yours. Re-read the last sentence...
 
#10 ·
Here's something about my door alignment that has always bothered me and definitely needs to be addressed. The door to quarter gap, which 'can' be seen in the pictures. As I have already said, the door to rocker gap is perfect. The top of the door to top of quarter alignment is good. From the body line on the door to top of the door, the gap with the quarter is acceptable, but it tightens up from the body line to the rocker at the quarter. How would you fix this area? The door is original and has not been reskinned. They have no rust. I replaced the quarters with NOS quarters. I made sure the door was aligned properly to the original quarter before I removed and replaced the quarter. When replacing quarters, you have so many areas to make sure fit well, so the quarter was welded on with the best fit, with the exception of the door to quarter gap.

I'll attach the bolts at the bottom and see what happens. This is not my first attempt at trying to align these fenders though. I had tried and tried previously to get them to line up with no avail, so I started back over focusing only at the top of the fender first.
 
#12 · (Edited)
As I have already said, the door to rocker gap is perfect. The top of the door to top of quarter alignment is good. From the body line on the door to top of the door, the gap with the quarter is acceptable, but it tightens up from the body line to the rocker at the quarter. How would you fix this area? The door is original and has not been reskinned. They have no rust. I replaced the quarters with NOS quarters. I made sure the door was aligned properly to the original quarter before I removed and replaced the quarter. When replacing quarters, you have so many areas to make sure fit well, so the quarter was welded on with the best fit, with the exception of the door to quarter gap.
You backed yourself into a corner by doing this. Adjustment alone will not establish proper door to qrt without throwing gaps off elsewhere, the rocker gap for one. Now you have mods to perform. Door to fender contact was mentioned upon door opening. Just add clearance to prevent this. You have to put all the bolts in to evaluate fit. And that mismatch of the lower fender to rocker is common, worse in some than in others. That requires a mod for a perfect match. Just because your car has GM tin does not mean it will line up well; not every one does, and in some areas never did. You have to compromise or start modifying. If you don't align the door to qrt first, you are wasting your time aligning the fender to door. And your door to qrt gap appears very tight under the midline. You do however have the benefit of the RS molding from obscuring the rocker gap inconsistency if there will be one.

Repro 67 door hinges? I was supplied with a set and knew I would not use them. I took the spring out and as no surpise they were very sloppy, a joke in fact. Bushings must be used that establish zero play, and not all do. If you use the detent roller repair kit be prepared for the roller bolt's shoulder to snap under the spring's force. That's why a roller pin is pressed in when GM hinges are rebuilt. How many have repro hinges that are junk on a painted car?
 
#11 ·
Also, the original hinges were rebuilt. The drivers side lower hinge was lost, don't know how I did that, after they were rebuilt. I had to order a reproduction lower hinge and that is what's on the car at the moment. I have since found a good used original, but have not put it on the car yet. I must say, the reproduction 67 lower door hinge is junk. Just from opening and closing the door since it was installed has already worn the roller to the point it is about to break off. We are fortunate to have so much of our cars reproduced, but the quality of these repop parts are pathetic.
 
#13 ·
The plane at the top of the door and the top of the fender is off. The fender is slightly lower than the door. If I readjust the door to make fit better at the quarter, then that will effectively raise the front of the door at the fender. I'm already fighting to get the fender up any higher than I have at this point. This is why I'm basically at a loss on how to proceed from this point.

You mentioned compromising or modify to make fit better. The scale of the build of this car doesn't hold to compromises, just as I don't, so what do I need to modify to make fit better? Keep in mind what I just mentioned above.
 
#15 ·
All the hinges have been rebuilt. They have no play in them. I am going to dig out the lower GM drivers hinge I bought a while ago and install it on the car today. I'm sure it will need to be rebuilt, but it looks so good it may not. The roller and detent on the hinge are perfect
 
#16 ·
Your door midline looks high in relation to the qtr. Before any mods, align the door the qtr and see how far off exactly the rocker gap is. Door to qrt tops did not all line up perfectly from the factory. My 67 wears it's original tin except one GM qtr, no mods required for gapping. I've done others with factory panels that were not so cooperative. Walking someone through an entire panel alignment on line is quite time consuming. Much faster to do it in person. Your next job will be self explanatory.
 
#17 ·
I'm going to check the midline and see how well it aligns door-to-quarter. I think the first order of business I need to do is get this POS repop lower hinge off the car and get a GM one on it. Maybe that will help in the alignment and help get me in the right direction. I foresee some metal cutting and grinding involved in the panel fitment process. My car, at the moment, has all its suspension, brakes and drivetrain all mocked up. I need to route the rear emergency brake cables, as its all aftermarket, and then take the car back apart before I continue with the panel alignment. I don't want metal grindings coating $25,000 dollars worth of finished, new, product. I'll be revisiting this very soon.
Thank you all for your help thus far
 
#18 ·
I am finally back at working on fender to door alignment. I removed the reproduction lower door hinge and installed a GM lower hinge and realigned the door. It is spot on now, except the door to quarter gap. I will need to add some metal to the door to get perfect fitment there. I am getting a stir paddle width at the bottom of the door, so that is the gap I will have to strive for on the rest of the door gap. I did some cutting, tweaking and hammer and dolly work on the driver's fender. I still cannot get the fender fitted to my satisfaction. I am noticing though on both the doors and fenders how they curve in at the gaps.

What is the best method to raising these areas up to where they are flat across the gaps?

Also, can someone be generous enough to post pictures of their fender to rocker panel? I need to see how the fender fits/looks at this area. This is the area that is giving me the most fits. I had some rust repair at the bottom corners of my fenders. It was done quite some time ago and I'm thinking the patch has thrown the fenders off in this area.
 
#21 ·
Also, can someone be generous enough to post pictures of their fender to rocker panel? I need to see how the fender fits/looks at this area. This is the area that is giving me the most fits. I had some rust repair at the bottom corners of my fenders. It was done quite some time ago and I'm thinking the patch has thrown the fenders off in this area.
here are a few of my 68. Full repo quarter with GM door & a converted fireturd fender. I did have to do a little slice & weld work on the quarter to door gap to correct it but it now has a consistent 3/16 gap. everything is just ruffed in at this point.
I hope this helps & good luck..



 
#19 ·
All factory fenders and doors are like that at the edge and part of the manufacturing process. It's not very noticeable unless severe or pointed out to the viewer. If you want to eliminate it, hammer and dolly the edges. Or do what butchers do and spread filler across the gaps and block them even and straight.

Lower fenders are commonly mismatched at the rocker, even GM. The fender has to be split form the brace and reformed to follow the contour. No telling how well the patch was done, I don't trust previous work.
 
#22 ·
As far as the flatness of panels across the gaps, it would be difficult to work the fenders with hammer and dolly, due to the fact, there is inner structure behind the outer panel. I have clear areas that are low, you can feel with your hand, and see from block sanding. Towards the top of the fender at the door, the fender is lower than the door and an area, on fender, that is clearly lower.
The same goes for my door. The door cannot get aligned any better than it is now. Body lines match up perfectly. The door gap has issues, but that can be easily addressed with a little work. However, at the door handle to the top of the door, the door is sunk in more than the quarter. This leaves a mismatch with the flatness of the panels across the gap. I have moderately block sanded this area and it has revealed to be low in this area. Also, in an effort to make sure the door is fit perfectly, the door is slightly lower than the quarter. In my quest for perfection, as I'm a perfectionist, I will have to address this. I have not given a great deal of thought as to the best way to fix this problem because it arose just yesterday after working on the door fitment.

Onto the fender to rocker fitment...The outer edge, where the fender folds over at the rocker and door gap, has never been disturbed. The patch that was installed did not disturb any of the original panel in that area. It was simply done on the flat area of the fender. The patch was done well, but quite some time ago. I can barely remember the time that I had it done. I did not do this patch. This is the one area of the car that I did not work on. I originally was going to farm out all the metal work till I got screwed over...Another story though...As I had originally shown in the beginning of this thread, The fender did not follow the angles of the door and rocker in that area. Yesterday, in a desperate attempt, I did some tweaking to that area of the fender to match the contours of the adjacent panels. I did succeed in creating a match, but now I opened another can of worms. I bent the fender in this area and now this lower section is not flat or have a gentle, slight curve to it. I created a bow in the fender, in which now, I'm afraid I'll have to reverse and do as you suggested. Your suggestion is probably the only proper way to do it and I'm not about doing hack work. I'm just highly frustrated at having such a difficult time trying to align original GM fenders, doors and rockers!
 
#24 ·
Difficult but not impossible to minimize the edge curve. The backside at the edge has to massaged out. I'm aware of the brace. Top of doors to tops of fenders on GM parts don't match exactly as is common. So is the sunken top of door to quarter of which you speak; same as my 67. The method I use to correct lower fender to rocker match is not unusual. GM fenders are like that and repro companies copied that "flaw". The misalignment you are finding with GM panels is quite common. Too much is expected from them and their era.

My car wears all GM metal. That's the way it is. Not good enough out of the box? Start modding.
 
#26 ·
Yes, the panels are not providing good enough fitment to my liking. Hence my frustrations and I understand the poor fitment from factory. As you know, I have went beyond factory on my car and am now on the part that shows the most, the body. I simply cannot accept factory fitment when I've spent 10's of thousands on aftermarket suspension and drive train. I can throw the best of parts on this car, but if I don't make the body look as good as the rest of the car, then I have done nothing more than devalue my efforts. I am willing to do whatever it takes to get these panels fitting to the best of my abilities. I have a tool box full of hammers, dollies, different tools to cut metal and a welder:)

Looks like today, I'll remove the inner fender structure from the outer fender on the lower area where it meets the rocker and work it to fit the rocker/door area better. One problem I see in doing this is I may end up with the same result as I did yesterday by simply standing the fender on the corner and pushing with my foot on the backside to get it to follow the same contours as the door/rocker area.
 
#28 ·
I'm not satisfied with the results of bending the panel. It looks 'bent' now. I didn't reinstall my passenger fender yesterday to see if its any better. I plan to do so today, though. I did notice there is an ever-so-slight curvature to the fender in that area. It's not perfectly flat. My results yesterday provided a not-so-slight-curvature to the fender, though:(
 
#30 ·
Hey Scott, wanna come hang out for a weekend down here:) I know, with your help, I could accomplish what would probably take me weeks/months in 2 days.

Yes, that is what I've been brainstorming right now. Seems as though I need to break the inner structure loose at the bottom, fit the fender to the car and then reweld it back on at the proper angle. The door and rocker are on two separate planes. I can see the slight curvature in my passenger fender, but it wasn't there on my drivers fender. I'll get that passenger fender thrown on the car today and see where I'm at on that side and hopefully will be able to have a physical model to follow by for the drivers side.
 
#32 ·
Here's what I have come up with so far today. This is the best I can get the door and fender to fit...
 

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#34 ·
I gotta say,they look pretty good already.I can see a spot or two that you were talking about not being 100%.
I cant even set gaps without having both sides sprayed in a light gray color.Hard to see the exact lines,for me anyway when one sides black.
I know in and out on 2nd gen doors plays with the hieghts of profiles on a fender as far as top of fender versus a body line lineup issue.When you roll the doors in or out,it drastically changes evrything.
I think youve got them pretty good,but good luck on the fine tuning.I wont suggest cutting and welding for final fit!
Although I wound up welding 1/16" mig rod to my repop patch areas to get the correct profiles.
 
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