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  #1  
Old Aug 26th, 10, 08:46 PM
Kevin58145 Kevin58145 is offline
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Kevin
 
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Default 454 build will it work?

Hey everyone, I have not fund the answers to my questions through google, so I figured I'd post here and hope for the best.

I have a 454 virgin block standard bore 2bolt main (truck block)
7416 steel crank, thumbprint rods,
TRW L2399 pistons.095 dome (13.8cc)
Oval port 049 heads(standard valves) cc'd at 118cc
Lunati 60202 cam specs are
112 separation .530in .542ex duration at.050 219in 227ex
hyd flat tappet
Edelbrock rpm air gap
Edelbrock 750cfm carb

Trans is a Borg Warner 4 speed from a Vette

4:10 posi

Car is a 69 camaro coupe

I'm trying to figure out how much power this will make and what the compression will be,

I'm really looking for at least 9:1

also the rotating assembly is completely balanced, could i change pistons to TRW L2349 .265 dome for better compression with out a re-balance?

Also will that cam work with this application?

The extended story is my uncle had this motor in a 4x4 3/4ton chevy and swore up and down that it was making near 425hp and would roll smoke off both rear 38in tall x 14in wide super swampers looking into it I'm thinking he may be telling stories again..... the cam i have listed is not the cam that came with the motor a friend recommended that lunati cam the cam that came in the motor i think may have been stock uncle says it was a gm performance cam (no markings)

ok guys let me have it the good and the bad! and your recommendations

has anyone ran a build like this?

Thanks in advance.

Kevin... oh also I work for NAPA so is there anything wrong with sealed power parts? that our main engine part supplier...
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  #2  
Old Aug 26th, 10, 09:21 PM
Z15CAM Z15CAM is offline
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Ron
 
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Default Re: 454 build will it work?

Using P Kelley's DCR Calculator found here: http://www.empirenet.com/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html I get a 9.1:1 Static, .044" Quench, Static with a Steel Shim .019" Gasket and producing a 7.635:1 DCR with that 60202 Cam.

Nice set up for a Gas friendly 5800 rpm torquer in my opinion.

I'm surprised that your 049's cc'd at 118, normally they are 122 cc's, but that's why we CC as it's been noted that same casting # do not necessarily mean the combustion chambers are the same with BBC's.

I ran a similar build years ago and often wonder why I even bothered to change it. With 4:10's and a M22 - Very Dependable; however, I do recommend that you install a good set of roller rockers like Harlard Sharp or Pro MAGS and 7/16" Push Rods as the engine will rev very fast with 4:10's and if you can't get the shift in by 5600 you will more then likely bust something in the valve train.
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Last edited by Z15CAM; Aug 26th, 10 at 10:10 PM.
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  #3  
Old Aug 27th, 10, 05:42 AM
67econobox 67econobox is offline
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Joe
 
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Default Re: 454 build will it work?

Hey Kevin,
the only way you should change the pistons and not re-balance the whole assembly is if the piston weight can be kept the same. If you can get a new piston and weigh the difference to your existing piston, maybe they will be close enough to balance out. As Z15CAM recommends, get a good set of roller rockers. With the cam and spring pressures that you are running, you really will not need 7/16 push rods, a good set of 3/8 push rods will do the job. Stay away from any push rods that have welded balls on the ends. Pay special attention to the valve train, it can be the weak link if not set up properly.
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  #4  
Old Aug 27th, 10, 07:15 AM
Kevin58145 Kevin58145 is offline
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Kevin
 
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Default Re: 454 build will it work?

Thanks for the replys i have a set of 1.7 roller aluminum roller rockers i think they're comp? But im not sure i think the push rods are stock, so i'll pick some up today. So in all this set up should scoot around pretty good? Should i change the cam for better compression if so which would be good?
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  #5  
Old Aug 27th, 10, 07:20 AM
Z15CAM Z15CAM is offline
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Default Re: 454 build will it work?

I ran a set of OEM 3/8" steel push rods out of a Truck Block and never had problems with a HFT BBC.

Although the engine will want to rev beyond 6G's, just try and get your shifts in by 5800.

By the way, I like your cam choice with that 112 LSA to maximize Torque and should have one mean Exhaust NOTE ;o)
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  #6  
Old Aug 27th, 10, 03:57 PM
Kevin58145 Kevin58145 is offline
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Default Re: 454 build will it work?

I forgot to mention earlier that the heads cc at 118cc cause they have previously been milled down to 118cc's ah well everything sounds good which makes me happy I was expecting someone to tell me it wouldn't work but sounds good is 7.6:1 compression on the low side or is that alright i assume it like 87 octane just fine right?

I love this site everyone is so helpful here!

So now I'm gonna go ahead and assemble the motor and hope it meets my expectations, if not I'll be turning this in to a 1970 LS6 454 i've read great things about that motor!

does anyone know what kinda numbers my current build will make?
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  #7  
Old Aug 27th, 10, 05:42 PM
Eleanor's Nemesis Eleanor's Nemesis is offline
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Default Re: 454 build will it work?

I would guess around 400-425 HP.
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  #8  
Old Aug 27th, 10, 08:39 PM
Kevin58145 Kevin58145 is offline
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Kevin
 
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Default Re: 454 build will it work?

Wow i was assuming mid 300 hp range! Thanks again for all your replys they really helped put me at ease i thought for sure i was gonna get this motor in my car and be disappointed but im also new to the big block world too.
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  #9  
Old Aug 28th, 10, 07:44 AM
Z15CAM Z15CAM is offline
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Default Re: 454 build will it work?

Milled .030 off the 049"s, I suspected so. Don't leave us guessing ;o)

I recommend that you stick with the .019 Shim Gasket to keep the quench at .044" as you stand the risk of rattling the pistons with greater quench - that is if you plan to run a composite .039" Gasket. With the .019 gasket the and heads shaved .030" your Valve Train and Valves will be .030" closer to the Pistons. meaning you have to pay attention to Push Rod Length for the rocker Geometry and Valve tip pattern. You may also have to mill the Intake so it fits the Heads and top of the Block.

Another solution is to 0-Deck the Block (minus .025") and use the .039" Composite Gasket giving you an Ideal .039" Quench. This will place the valve train approx (.039" - .025" = +.014" - .030" = -.016" (lower) then OEM Specs which will probable negate push rod length and intake mating problems.

Generally Quench is not that much of a factor with engines running 9:1 and lower Static Compression and you may get by using a .039" Composite Gasket producing a .025" + .039" = .064" Quench. This will raise the Valve train and Piston to Valve Clearance .009" higher then Stock and should not effect the STD Push Rod Length or Intake Mating.

If you choose to 0-Deck and use the .039" Composite Gasket - Which I recommend. The -.025" plus the -.030" milled off the heads - .039" for the gasket, I doubt .016" will case alarm concerning Valve to Piston Clearance with the short duration LUN-60202 cam: but it's always wise to Mock a Head Assembly using the intended Head gasket with Plumbers Putty across the Valve Reliefs to check Valve to piston Clearance when degreeing a Cam.

Things would have been much simpler if you had chosen the 118cc 781 Castings or perhaps the 113cc 820 402ci Head Castings to match them pistons. The chambers could have been easily opened to increase Volume and obtain your desired Static Compression as milling heads cause a change reaction through out the entire build as OEM Specs are gone and cost more in the long run.
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Last edited by Z15CAM; Aug 28th, 10 at 08:05 AM.
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  #10  
Old Aug 28th, 10, 11:02 AM
larryh56 larryh56 is offline
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Default Re: 454 build will it work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin58145 View Post
So now I'm gonna go ahead and assemble the motor and hope it meets my expectations, if not I'll be turning this in to a 1970 LS6 454 i've read great things about that motor!
If you don't like it let me know. Sounds like it would be a great motor for my 72 truck.
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  #11  
Old Aug 28th, 10, 08:31 PM
Kevin58145 Kevin58145 is offline
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Kevin
 
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Default Re: 454 build will it work?

I got a great deal on on 7/16 hardened push rods at at a car show today paid 15 bucks for brand new box of comp rods just need to get guides unless 5/16th guides can be modified? Z15CAM i was feeling good about this untill i read your last post now im discouraged... not really just means i have a lot more to learn that's all which i like learning new things when it comes to cars and engines also thanks for being so helpful this doesn't seem like something i would wanna use "trial & error" on i don't have that much money so again thanks for your advise.
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  #12  
Old Aug 29th, 10, 09:13 AM
Z15CAM Z15CAM is offline
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Ron
 
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Default Re: 454 build will it work?

Over the years I've learned you have to be particular with the BBC Valve train as they are HEAVY. If the Rocker Geometry is not accurate you can quickly damage Valve Stems and wear out the Guides and break components ... etc. GM Engineers did a wonderful job Designing & SPEC the MK IV - Believe me - So Don't Astray from it.

I like the Torquer 268H-10 or that Lunati 112 LSA profile cammed in a low compression 425Hp 454 - They are virtually maintenance free but will want to rev Past 6000 so that Valve Train has to be relatively sturdy and accurate. Unfortunately your modified (milled .030") 049 Heads are imposing forces on the Valve train Geometry and move the Valves closer to the Piston, not that a Mid .5 lift a 268 duration should comprise the pistons but it does compromise the Valve Train & Intake Geometry which is an Expensive FIX.

If you want that 9.2:1 Static, I would see about trading them 049's in for a set of 118cc 781 castings and all concerns about Rocker Geometry and Intake mating will be gone as well as the expense of modifying parts that make them worth less to enthusiasts that know better.

Of course you can use the 113cc 820 heads and up the Static to say 10:1 and run a bigger cam like a XM274H-12 or XM280H-12 placing the DCR at 8:1 but now it's a 92 Octane 6200 rpm 500Hp mill ;o)

You can mill approx .005" to .010" off a Head to Straighten and refresh the surface but .030" is over board as it effects every component of the Valve train and Intake System.

Racing Catalogs do not Cross reference Component Compatibility well but their Parts are designed for OEM SPECS; for instance, your Pistons are designed for either the 820 or 781 heads, depending on desired Static compression, Cam Selection relative for Pump gas. I think if you used (unmodified) 122cc 049 castings with them pistons, a Blower would be in mind. The Larger Domed Speed Pro ZL2349F30 Pistons are more suited for the 781 and 049 Castings - You beginning to get the Drift ;o)

Never let a Mechanic or Machinist's talk you into shaving Heads for the sake of Hi-Perf as it opens a whole can of Expensive Worms that may or may not work as they plainly have no clue what they are doing in regards to SPECS; however, you can Deck the Block to accommodate Head Gasket thickness and Quench.

If I ever happen to break a push rod, or any valve train component, in my 625Hp SR MK IV, I can reach into the carcass of a Wrecking Yard Block and use that part. I'm pushing the envelope on Pump Gas with a 10.2:1 Static SR Donovan Cam Gear, Crower HIPPO, Lunati Cammed, 7000 rpm 625Hp 460 running TRW Speed-Pro L2465F30’s with 2.19/1.9 Manley Severe Duty Pro Flow Valved 781 casting topped with a Jomar Girdle, forged rotating assembly and considering 402ci 820's Heads with a Bigger Cam - We are a Sick Lot ;o)

A Holley 750 Dp 4779/Elelbrock RPM is just fine to reach 6500 rpm but an 830 cfm 4 Corner Annular 80511-1 NASCAR/RPM Air-Gap does the Job to hit 7000 rpm with Oval Ports providing the rotating assembly is Forged. A cast crank (recommended X-Drilled) is just fine under 6800 rpm but then again a HFT Lifter Baffs at 6400 rpm in a BBC but will hit 7000 in a SBC. I shifted my HFT 340 MAG Dodge Engine at 7200 rpm but I did damage my valve seats over time. You don't know what I put my British 1600E Lotus Cortina and Swedish B1800 and 21MEF 240 Volvo's through. Love the BMW 2002 and the awesome Toyota Crown, Truimph TR6, 2+2's ...etc. Oh My them Leyland and Jaguar DOHC Engines are Special.

I can put it across better then Most Enthusiasts with the least amount of words and wish I had this knowledge when I Started; but, I lived through the process - You want to Race - Click on my Flickr Cannon Ball Daily Grocery Getters for the last 40 years - There are ONLY 2, which I still ride, a 4 wheel GM 70Z & a 2 wheel Breganze Laverda 750 SF - Both are Table Top 7000 and 8000 rpm 1970 Vintage ;o)
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Last edited by Z15CAM; Aug 29th, 10 at 05:39 PM.
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  #13  
Old Aug 31st, 10, 06:28 PM
Kevin58145 Kevin58145 is offline
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Default Re: 454 build will it work?

Z15cam you share some good info any idea what kinda gas for this motor i assume regular 87
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  #14  
Old Aug 31st, 10, 08:38 PM
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Nashville Beth Nashville Beth is offline
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Default Re: 454 build will it work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z15CAM View Post
If you want that 9.2:1 Static, I would see about trading them 049's in for a set of 118cc 781 castings and all concerns about Rocker Geometry and Intake mating will be gone as well as the expense of modifying parts that make them worth less to enthusiasts that know better.
Ron,

I always thought the 049 and 781 castings were identical. I've never heard of a BBC chamber being bigger than 119cc.

Is there a reference, book , etc that specifies what the differences are?
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  #15  
Old Sep 1st, 10, 01:33 AM
Z15CAM Z15CAM is offline
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Default Re: 454 build will it work?

Quote:
what kinda gas for this motor i assume regular 87
Any motor with lower then an 8:1 DCR , providing it's not blown, should be OK with 87 Octane. what I like about a low Compression 454 is that you can put in 93 Octane and virtually advance the dizzy another 10 degrees or so.

Quote:
I always thought the 049 and 781 castings were identical.
Yes it seems to be a 50/50 chance of that happening but for Std Automotive use I've found most 049's are 122ccs, as in Kevin's case. and that's why we should always CC BB OEM Castings as GM was not consistent with BBC chamber volume.

There is very little flow differences between the 820, 781 and 049 but if you want say a 10:1 Static you must choose the appropriate Piston Vs Casting EG: 13.8cc L2399F for the 820's, 25.7cc L2465F for the 781 and 29.4cc L2349F for the 049's. Of course if you used the 820/L2349 combination the static Compression would likely be approaching 13:1 where as Kevin when to the other extreme and used the low Dome Vol L2399F in the largest chambered 049 ending up with approx an 8.5:1 Static. He attempted to recover the Static compression by milling the Heads but this opens a whole can of worms leading for expense and modified parts that are useless for other motors and other enthusiasts.

In Kevin's case I would be tempted to use the 402 113cc 820 castings with them L2399F Pistons and run the Comp Cams XM274H-12 or a similar profiled Lunati grind; for instance, you really can not do better then running the 25.7cc L2465F pistons under the 113cc 820 casting for a 10.5:1 SFT or SR 454 for Street/Strip application ;o)

As I've pointed out after market Pistons are Designed for OEM Heads but it's difficult to recognize the proper combination in regards for intended use and modifying any part just opens a whole can of worms.
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Last edited by Z15CAM; Sep 1st, 10 at 02:23 AM.
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