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Troubleshooting Diagnosing problems done here.

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  #1  
Old Jul 2nd, 11, 07:20 PM
joyride_ joyride_ is offline
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Brian
 
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Default dyno and disappointed (pics)

So here's the deal. My dad has a 69 camaro with a 355. Turbo 400 and a currie ford 9 inch w/ 4.56 gears. Has his 350 cloned after a car craft motor build in which theirs produced 522 hp on an engine dyno and 454 torque. Their timing is setup at 39 degrees max, has smaller aluminum heads than our bigger iron heads, and our compression is roughly 11:1 compared to theirs at 10:1.

My dad has his 355 with the same cam but slightly more duration (not much), iron eagle 210 heads(not aluminum like in their build) and 11:1 c/r as i mentioned. Same size carb, all that bs, everything ELSE is basically the same except their distributor is a gm hei, and ours is a mallory unilite. We also have a 1/2 inch more spacer for the nitrous plate setup for our 100 shot. lol

So while we're on the chasis dyno, we were expecting somewhere in the 400hp/torque range since the drivetrain takes up some power as you know and all....Well...We were pretty embarrassed, even though it sounded good and all! lol...We pumped out a whopping 265 hp to the wheels...We aren't real confident about what our timing is now because of the #'s...but our initial timing was right at 9-10...During the dyno my dad said it fell flat and stopped at 5500 rpm, but we have a full roller setup and we've taken it to 8k before. Our valve lash is setup at 12-14, 12 intake 14 exhaust and after the dyno, we changed the initial timing up some but didn't go for a 2nd run. As we left the place my dad stomped on it and took it up to 6100 no problem?

Our spark plugs are brand new, as well as the wires and cap too, the rotor is the only thing that probably have the full 800 or so miles on it as the engine does. The plugs have a nitrous test run under them so basically all of them look shiny, no speckles or bad burn marks on them since then...all but one of them look pretty damn shiny, the one that doesn't is all but shiny in one spot where there is a gray spot. We once had the fuel pressure too high so we're wondering if we blew out the needles and seats but when we drive this thing around town it seems like it runs pretty good..? Maybe we just don't know what a 500+ hp motor should feel like and we're missing something here...I have noticed myself when he hits the throttle it doesn't sound as crisp or snappy as it once did when we got the motor running for the first time....

We do have a small burn mark/crack in the #3 cylinder but that has been protected with a heat sleeve/boot ever since. We drove it around town once after we put new headers on where the #3 cylinder plug wire basically was resting on the header. We want to say it was misfiring, and you'd think we'd be able to hear it but the car is so loud, and we're maybe mistaking the misfire for an exhaust leak as we did lower the car and it does scrape coming out of the driveway so we thought maybe we have a slight exhaust leak. Also, the #5 cylinder, the tip on it where the plug wire meets it, actually unscrewed itself to the point where when I was taking off the plug to check gaps and how they looked, that the tip fell off as I was undoing the plug so I screwed it back on. BUT, that plug looks just like all the others, fine? Sorry I know I've written a novel but I figured I'd go over everything so you guys know the full story before guessing if you don't mind helping.

Our plan is to : put the spark plugs back in, replace the #3 cylinder plug wire, (btw the heat sleeve on the plug looks perfect, so it hasn't been burnt through even though it's on the header) and then start raising the initial timing since it ran better after leaving the dyno after we had raised the initial timing there. So we're gonna start messing with timing until it pings then back it off some, and replace that one wire and go from there. Any other ideas would be appreciated.

btw, the engine build we cloned is in my signature...




the gap on all plugs were 35
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http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...ine/index.html

Last edited by joyride_; Jul 2nd, 11 at 07:33 PM.
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  #2  
Old Jul 2nd, 11, 07:32 PM
srode srode is offline
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Steve
 
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Default Re: dyno and disappointed (pics)

You need to get the jetting right first, then the timing - does the dyno have a wide band O2 you are using on it and is the carb dialed in? Once you get jetting and timing set you will probably find you have some more power. Use the dyno to tune it.
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  #3  
Old Jul 2nd, 11, 07:40 PM
joyride_ joyride_ is offline
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Brian
 
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Default Re: dyno and disappointed (pics)

We didn't go that far in depth on the dyno. My friend's parents own the shop and a friend who used to work there said it was a cheap fun friendly dyno day so we went in and had it dyno'ed for 30 bucks. lol...

They want 4-600 for a dyno tune and my dad doesn't want to spend that kinda money. How do we know when the jets are right? I think our jets are 92s...Would we need to buy jets that are the next step lower and higher than our 92s, replace them, do the timing, and then take a test beat, or just change the jets, don't mess with timing, and take a test beat and see how it runs, then mess with timing? The dyno tune, they said would use an 02 sensor and it'd be a welded in one with a bung we can plug when not on the dyno or using an A/F ratio gauge to monitor it but i think that'd be pointless if we had it dialed in once we wouldn't need to monitor it right?

I told my dad I would save up some money to get it dyno'ed as we feel we are far below what we should be making, and my dad was disappointed and kinda embarrassed since all eyes were on us as we came in and all but i was happy just to be around a **** ton of nice cars. lol...

here's the video if anyone is interested.
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Old Jul 2nd, 11, 08:42 PM
joyride_ joyride_ is offline
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Brian
 
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Default Re: dyno and disappointed (pics)

Also, how much hp could too stiff of valve springs rob from your motor? The article for the motor build they used valve springs that were 160 on the seat and 400 over the nose? Ours my dad thinks are 600 over the nose, doesn't know what the seat pressure is..? The motor we have was built almost roughly 9 years ago and we just finally got all the pieces together and it running 2 years ago so i guess it's a lil' tough to remember all the details.
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01 S10 Xtreme 2/3 drop, BUILT 4.3L v6, 5spd
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  #5  
Old Jul 2nd, 11, 09:19 PM
97Z4C 97Z4C is offline
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darrell
 
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Default Re: dyno and disappointed (pics)

gotta alot of work ahead of you-to get on track--92s is way off , i am presuming-lean makes power but you dont wont too lean-and since you will play with nitrous, i suggest reading up on reading plugs--start with 81 square get a plug reading then put attention to timing and reading ground strap on plugs for timing--forget intial timing--set total on 36 -read plug --ring on ground strap should be center--your valve lash seems real close--is that what cam card states-usually its closer to 20--larger lash yields more hp on upper rpm while closer -just oposite--600 open is alots unless its a big roller--its always critical to set up springs to cam card-a little more lift than previuos roller cam can yield coil bind-i love the iron eagles for street and they do make power -our 383 with them and 11 to 1 660 lift roller dyno pull was at 520 at 6300
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Old Jul 2nd, 11, 09:37 PM
joyride_ joyride_ is offline
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Brian
 
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Default Re: dyno and disappointed (pics)

Yeah, I've done some homework on reading the plugs for nitrous. Our burn marks on the plugs I was told by a nitrous friend himself that they were right on the money. Our plugs basically look shiny. Are 92s too big? Are our 210 heads too big for a 355? I'm not real sure anymore what our total timing is but my dad's been saying the whole time it's at 32..so we could bump it up some. What size jets are in your 383? The cam card for the cam that's used in the motor build was setup for 16-18 but ours is 12-14...Our cam has 580 lift, is that enough to warrant a 600 psi valve spring?
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  #7  
Old Jul 3rd, 11, 04:27 AM
srode srode is offline
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Default Re: dyno and disappointed (pics)

2 or 3 runs on the dyno and an hour is all you need to dial it in pretty close probably - that will get the jets right and let you try 34, 36, and 38 advances timing to see what it likes. Target upper 12's to mid 13's for WOT during the run would be about right for AF ratio.
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Old Jul 3rd, 11, 04:40 AM
DOUG G DOUG G is offline
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Default Re: dyno and disappointed (pics)

Heads may be a bit big for a 355 which will hurt the low speed air flow.

92's <-- way big IMO, may want to recheck

Timing sounds off also. I would look at the plugs to see where it's at...and open the gap some.

Whats your vacuum at, is there a power valve (or blocked off and thats why the 92's?)

and don't get hung up on dyno numbers....track tells the tail
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Old Jul 3rd, 11, 09:38 AM
srode srode is offline
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Default Re: dyno and disappointed (pics)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DOUG G View Post
Heads may be a bit big for a 355 which will hurt the low speed air flow.

92's <-- way big IMO, may want to recheck
Agree, I was thinking mid 70s for jets and 195 tops for heads.
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Old Jul 3rd, 11, 10:26 AM
joyride_ joyride_ is offline
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Brian
 
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Default Re: dyno and disappointed (pics)

In the motor build article, they're using afr 195 heads so ours are a little bit bigger, but their motor build is using the same 92 square jets that we have in our carb too..?

the only thing different from the motor build we cloned is a slighty more duration cam, not much...and iron eagle 210 heads rather than the afr 195s...well and having slightly smaller headers because the 1 3/4 were costly and we're working on a budget now so we want to try and diagnose and fix this thing without the dyno tune....(for now)

we're definitely going to be doing some timing today...and i think open up the carb and start looking at a few things...power valve/needle and seat, jets...

we're pretty sure the jets are fine being 92s...it's what the motor build had...

should i open up the gap a little on the plugs at all?
any opinion on our valve springs being that much stiffer than what was on the motor build as well?

it's the link in my sig we cloned this motor after...


EDIT :OK, well this was surprising...the jets are 81s...so we don't have 92s...it has always seemed like it has ran rich though...and we're using smaller jets than what the motor build calls for...

another edit...lol..now my dad is all confused..look at me all crazy when i said...that the jets in the back were 80s...and the fronts are 81s....he says the bigger ones go in back?

and again another edit :
4.5 power valve in front, plugged in back. 81 jets in front, 80 in back as stated...we're looking to go 87/92...since the motor build we cloned is using 92s....we should be using the same right?? our question is, is anyone from the forum in wa, anywhere from renton to tacoma and do you guys have any spare jets we could possibly use/buy/borrow? lol thanks again baxter's has to order them...
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MY RIDE

01 S10 Xtreme 2/3 drop, BUILT 4.3L v6, 5spd
DADS RIDE
69 Camaro 500+ hp 355, t400, currie ford 9inch 4.56 gears, 100 shot
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...ine/index.html

Last edited by joyride_; Jul 3rd, 11 at 01:52 PM.
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Old Jul 3rd, 11, 06:11 PM
joyride_ joyride_ is offline
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Brian
 
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Default Re: dyno and disappointed (pics)

so we noticed today we also had a kink in our fuel line...that's not good? lol

and also, we went to a friends place and he had a **** ton of jets...we got a set of 84 86 and 90 jets for this thing..we're starting at 84..

but im gonna go party...i'll update more tomorrow...
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01 S10 Xtreme 2/3 drop, BUILT 4.3L v6, 5spd
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http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...ine/index.html
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Old Jul 3rd, 11, 11:24 PM
97Z4C 97Z4C is offline
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Default Re: dyno and disappointed (pics)

i dont see it wanting that much fuel--i didnt need no mre than 81 in my drag 383 with 250 shot--my 468 710hp doesnt want that big of jet--i would still look at total timing of 36--i dont think 600 open is close for spring pressure-in my 355 with a huge lunati roller close to 680 lift called for 621 open at 2.10-open valve lash up to 16-18 atleast-especially with your heads
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Old Jul 4th, 11, 02:42 AM
srode srode is offline
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Default Re: dyno and disappointed (pics)

Quote:
Originally Posted by joyride_ View Post
EDIT :OK, well this was surprising...the jets are 81s...so we don't have 92s...it has always seemed like it has ran rich though...and we're using smaller jets than what the motor build calls for...

another edit...lol..now my dad is all confused..look at me all crazy when i said...that the jets in the back were 80s...and the fronts are 81s....he says the bigger ones go in back?

and again another edit :
4.5 power valve in front, plugged in back. 81 jets in front, 80 in back as stated...we're looking to go 87/92
I still think the Jets you have a too fat - I had 75 front and 78 rear in my 408 with a 650 double pumper on the dyno and it was still a tad fat so I dropped the rear to 76. I sure can't see it running better with bigger jets. I ran jets there were in mid 70s on my 350 when I drag raced, again 650 dp and that's a motor that I ran to 7000 RPM shift points. Larger jets and I lost time at the strip. That said, you don't want it too lean - will create more heat and on a new engine will cause premature failure potentially, better too fat than too lean. You really need to dial in the jetting with good plug reading, drag strip times, a wide band O2 meter, or a Dyno. Pug reading is least accurate IMHO though.

Yes bigger in the back but not more than a couple sizes - 74x76 is where I would set them initially then dial it in. The article could have a typo or a mistake in reporting their actual set up. I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually 72s not 92s.

I agree you want about 36 advance all in with vacumm advance disconnected. Should probably make sure your pointer is accruate first using a piston stop. You'd be surprised how far off they can be, and a few degrees can make a world of difference.
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Old Jul 4th, 11, 04:42 AM
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Default Re: dyno and disappointed (pics)

OK, some questions.

Exactly what carb do you have? A stock 69 Z28 Holley carb, list #4053 - 780 cfm - would run 68 jets in the front and 76 in the rear.

You went with the 210 heads, but are choking it down with small headers? Why? What is the rest of your exhaust system?

What fuel are you using? 11 to 1 and iron heads is on the edge for pump gas in many cases.

What are exact specs of cam? I would like to look it up and see what springs are recommended. 600 seems like a lot. That cam is not huge.

Here is a solid roller cam with similar lift. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HRS-111153-08S/
Lash is 0.018 intake and 0.020 exhaust.

Here are the recommended springs for the cam. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HRS-98441/
Spring rate is 375 lbs/in.

What does the cam card say for timing and valve lash? Your lash seems a little tight.

I know of a local car with an 11 to 1 compression 355 - built with aluminum heads and 660 lift solid roller cam, runs on aviation gas and has 500+ hp. 3.90 gears with M21 and shifts at 7500 rpm right before it hits the chip.
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Old Jul 4th, 11, 12:53 PM
joyride_ joyride_ is offline
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Default Re: dyno and disappointed (pics)

If it's possible they made an error when printing out that article with the size jets, is it possible I could call car craft and talk to somebody to figure that much out? Or does that sound like a large task? I don't understand why we can't run the same jets they did? My dad's friend said he wouldn't even think to put 90s or bigger in it because ours is still a street car, but then again...the article for the motor build said their plan was on making a 500+ hp pump friendly gas streetable motor...so if they were planning on it being streetable then we should be able to use their same sized jets? I know you guys know more about cars,motors and carbs than I do so I will definitely relay any and all information to my dad, and take your guys advice to hopefully find a solution.

About our motor, the carb is an aed holley 850 dp with a 4.5 power valve in front, and when we opened it up just yesterday 81/80 which my dad was instantly i guess, you could say was surprised or stunned to see. lol

I think opening up the valve lash in our plans as well. Our headers are 1 5/8 so yes, they are smaller, the rest of the exhaust system is 3 inches back to super 44s. The reason for the smaller headers is basicaly due to cost. We're working on a tight budget now and my dad couldn't see himself spending 600+ on the bigger headers.

the fuel we're using is 92 octane shell or bp gas, half the time we have octane booster in it, probably need to use it more often. We would definitely have racing gas 104-108 octane when we go race.

the cam card, actually we don't know where it is. We might have lost it or something I'm not sure..? The article calls for 16 and 18 on the valve lash for their cam, so i think we'll be changing ours out to that probably. 600 for our valve springs i guess was just my dad being worried or something i'm not sure either.
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http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...ine/index.html
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