[RichSchmidt]

I also have a factory restamped engine in my garage that I got for free from another member here. Again,it is a practically worthless 307,but it does clearly show how GM themselves did odd things back in the day. If you are wondering why I bothered to seek out a 307,it was because I was thinking about building a 307 for the PHR Engine Masters Challenge,with a trick combo I wanted to run using 283 pistons and short 400 rods to make an engine with a favorable design to the required test speeds.

[clill]

The rebody debate will go on forever and I can see where at some point the body is just so junk that the car should be junked but instead another body is used to save it. I would rather see that then have the car gone forever. The problem I have is not disclosing it.

I also have no idea about Dan's rethink my playbook comment.

[1968Motion427SSNova]

Rich, Great info you took the time to post.The way you wrote it anyone can understand it. William,Bill G CRG site has a Dr friend who has a real Born With bodied ZL1 427 Camaro,its a Silver car that was sold at Hauser Chevrolet Bethlehem PA! Rare Aluminum Sold at Bethlehem! So what is a real ZL1 vin plate worth since the Original Born With ZL1 body was destroyed and crushed??

[RichSchmidt]

Originally Posted by clill

The rebody debate will go on forever and I can see where at some point the body is just so junk that the car should be junked but instead another body is used to save it. I would rather see that then have the car gone forever. The problem I have is not disclosing it.

I also have no idea about Dan's rethink my playbook comment.

I tend to agree. If it must be done,it would be better to do it with all real metal from the era. If somebody got lucky enough to find a date code correct,and color correct mint body,it would be better to see the car with the real "warts and all" body then see somebody try and fix it with chinese steel,or NOS pieces,and duplicate the warts. If a rare car is a nearly 100% original car,with most of it's interior,driveline,subframe,trim,and even some body parts remaining on a very rusty body,it is a viable option. As far as I am concerned,it doesnt matter at that point if the body were restamped,it is probably most real then half the "restored" cars out there. You are one of the few guys who is known to be a good buyer for real original and rare cars,and everything you own is typically regarded as bonafide real beyond a shadow of a doubt,but there are still many scammers and many unknowlageable victims out there. Some guy paying an extra 10 grand for a Camaro that was really an SS396/325 car but was dolled up and restamped as an L-78 car is bad,but guys resurecting long gone engine blocks,VIN and trim tags out of dust to make million dollar cars is a real problem. The day a guy like you, or Jerry M fall victim to a really good scammer,it might just turn the Camaro collector market upside down.

[1968Motion427SSNova]

Rich, Again you took the time to explain your personal feelings about a Rebodied car.Anyone can understand that.I thank you for that. Now what is a Real ZL1 vin worth,just the vin?

[RichSchmidt]

Originally Posted by 1968Motion427SSNova

Rich, Again you took the time to explain your personal feelings about a Rebodied car.Anyone can understand that.I thank you for that. Now what is a Real ZL1 vin worth,just the vin?

Who knows what it one is worth. One issue is that these plates had to come from somewhere. What if the plate came off a car that was hacked into a race car,but the real car still exist,and maybe even has the hidden VINs? Same goes for the engine. What about some of those cars that were supposedly stolen off the dealer lot when new,and somehow turned up in restored original condtion,right after there were rumors of somebody reproducing VIN tags?

One example is a ZL-1 VIN tag out there with the owner of the car from the 70's. I believe the owner sent the car out to be backhalfed into a super stocker back then,and when he saw the car at the shop shortly after that the shop had cut out the entire floor and undercarrage rendering the car useless for the class. Supposedly the owner didnt want to pay for the work,and the shop owner wouldnt release the car,so the car owner walked into the shop and yanked the tags off the car. The shop oner supposedly sold the car anyway,and it went on to lead a long life as a race car before vanishing into obsurity,and the owner of the tags was on the hunt for the car. I believe that was in the northwest a few years back,and havent heard much about the car since. Who knows what could happen there. The situation is well know,as is the number of the car,and the owner seemed to have good intentions of reuniting the car and the tags.

[1968Motion427SSNova]

Rich,Thats the Chuck S Seattle Washington ZL1 Camaro you speak of. Chuck is a great guy,true car guy and has been honest and opened about that car. You do know that there was a Certain guy that ran a AD in National Dragster back in the Mid 80's looking for owners of these ZL1 cars.He posted the Known vin numbers and was trying to buy the cars.If he couldn't buy the car he would make a nice offer on the title and vin. Theres people that know this but I'll keep this info off the open internet who he is and where hes from.

[1968Motion427SSNova]

Rich,You'll like this since your from Jersey City NJ not far from Bloomfield NJ. Years back Chuck S bought a real deal rare 1970 SS396/375HP L78 4 speed from Bloomfield NJ. I believe it had the Split Front bumper RS option and was unrestored! You can find Chuck on NastyZ28. I remember talking to Chuck years back on the phone about it.

[Vintage 68]

I have no problem with properly built and documented 're-bodies'.
Been a party to one myself ... not mine, so I can't give out numbers - but, the numbers are well marked as such.

Originally Posted by clill

... I also have no idea about Dan's rethink my playbook comment.

If you do throw the old one out, can I have it

[1968Motion427SSNova]

John,The 1969 ZL1 Rebodie you were a party to was that recently? I know legally you have to watch what you say but can post any info without getting yourself in trouble with current owner? Thanks for your info,

[Fred Ficarra]

Guy's, this isn't a game. Altering/changing VIN's is a felony.

[Vega$69]

Originally Posted by Fred Ficarra

Guy's, this isn't a game. Altering/changing VIN's is a felony.

Changing cowl tags is not. At least I don't think so.

[1968Motion427SSNova]

Fred,Thank you for saying that so Team Camaro members can see that. This is one of the reasons I'm getting out of the musclecar stuff,seems certain guys are alright with rebodieing rare musclecars,I'm not!! I personally hate rebodied ,restampers ,protecto plate makers,cowel tag makers ,window sticker makers,Chevrolet invoice makers using a old invoice and old type writers. I love these cars because I grew up on them in the 70's when the only value was how bad it ran ,how bad it sounded and how bad it looked!! Its too much about money now and the "Knighted" person who is Blessed with ownership of some Made cars. Bunch of BS I hate it. Dan

[RichSchmidt]

Originally Posted by Vega$69

Changing cowl tags is not. At least I don't think so.

But a rebody does involve changing the VIN tag. A while back,there was a car floating around that I believe was an original L-78 car. Somebody installed the entire drive train out of a ZL-1 into it,but left all the VINs intact. The guy went so far as to use mostly NOS parts on the job and did it to a very high quality chalk mark,paint dab and over spray pattern restoration. I even believed the car had a body that was close in build date to the engine. The car sold for well into the 6 figure range but was always regarded as a tribute/clone. Its bad stuff when crusty old VIN tags come out of the woodwork and appear on cars that they don't belong on,but now even long gone VIN tags are showing up as shiny new ones. Rebodied cars always involve a VIN swap.

One thing that interests me is when does a car cease to be the original car. I remember seeing a tread about a ZL-1 that was hacked up into a race car back in the day. The car was touted as having every piece of born with sheet metal from header panel to taial light panel. That was true. But the cat was backhalfed from the firewall back,the entire floor all the way up to the toe boards was gone,and I believe some of the inner quart panel structure. The restorer cut up a rust free original car to donate all the missing metal. So maybe you say that's o.k. but what if the next owner replaces the quarters,and somebody else down the road has to replaced the roof etc? Where do you draw the line?

[1968Motion427SSNova]

Rich, To me a rebodie is when you take the original vin off whats left of the original car and put it on the new body. 2 cars come in the shop one come out.Some Restoration shops will do it to save tons of money for that current owner wanting a faster cheaper restoration. I know one car I'm keeping my eye on that I know they did it to.They brought a rust free body up from New Mexico years ago. Profit and margin plays into it. Again like the Team Camaro member said in a prior post its a felony to remove the vin from the original body. Maybe thats another reason they don't disclose it. Theres guys removing the entire sheetmetatal cover where vin is attached to so not to disturb the sheetmetal and factory revits.You have to remove the windsheild to see that one.