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  #31  
Old Jan 5th, 13, 07:58 AM
makoshark makoshark is offline
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Jeremy
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: byhalia, ms
Posts: 1,144
Default Re: Panel alignment...gaps

Another question, if shims are needed at the bottom of the fender, are they not suppose to go between the body and fender? If so, how the heck do you get them in there?
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  #32  
Old Jan 5th, 13, 01:27 PM
makoshark makoshark is offline
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Jeremy
 
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Location: byhalia, ms
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Default Re: Panel alignment...gaps

Here's what I have come up with so far today. This is the best I can get the door and fender to fit...
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  #33  
Old Jan 5th, 13, 02:15 PM
Rarerat Rarerat is offline
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Nick
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: New Mexico
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Default Re: Panel alignment...gaps

Here are the pics you requested. I went ahead & grabbed one of each side for you.
I hope they help..
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  #34  
Old Jan 5th, 13, 02:15 PM
72LS3Z27 72LS3Z27 is offline
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Chris
 
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Default Re: Panel alignment...gaps

I gotta say,they look pretty good already.I can see a spot or two that you were talking about not being 100%.
I cant even set gaps without having both sides sprayed in a light gray color.Hard to see the exact lines,for me anyway when one sides black.
I know in and out on 2nd gen doors plays with the hieghts of profiles on a fender as far as top of fender versus a body line lineup issue.When you roll the doors in or out,it drastically changes evrything.
I think youve got them pretty good,but good luck on the fine tuning.I wont suggest cutting and welding for final fit!
Although I wound up welding 1/16" mig rod to my repop patch areas to get the correct profiles.
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  #35  
Old Jan 5th, 13, 02:43 PM
makoshark makoshark is offline
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Jeremy
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: byhalia, ms
Posts: 1,144
Default Re: Panel alignment...gaps

Thanks Nick, that helps tremendously.

Chris, one of the areas of the fender where its lower than the door, towards the top of the fender, you can see where I block sanded it and the area towards the edge is showing very low. It's so bad you can feel the low spot. I can wipe body filler over it and bring it up, but I'm not satisfied with doing it that way. I feel it would be better to slice the fender on the edge, in that area, and raise the fender up, then weld it back together. I will probably have to do that to every low spot around the fenders and possibly the doors. However, I do plan to weld rod to the edge of the door to close/straighten the gap. I know it's a great deal of work to break out the cutoff wheel and grinder, but its the only way, really, to do it right and to my satisfaction.

Here's a picture of the fender to rocker panel area on the drivers side. I stood the fender up on that corner and then placed my foot on the backside of the fender and pressed down on it to get the fender to follow the contour of the rocker and the door. It worked.

The gap looks wide, but believe it or not, it is 1/4" inch fender to door gap.
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  #36  
Old Jan 6th, 13, 08:37 AM
327!275hp!Convt! 327!275hp!Convt! is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Dallas, Texas
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Default Re: Panel alignment...gaps

I don’t know if it would help, but there are a number of videos on YouTube concerning the issues you are having. One of them might have a “gap” trick you’ve overlooked or not thought about:


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  #37  
Old Jan 6th, 13, 09:05 AM
Sauron67MM Sauron67MM is offline
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Scott
 
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Location: CT
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Default Re: Panel alignment...gaps

Quote:
Originally Posted by makoshark View Post
Another question, if shims are needed at the bottom of the fender, are they not suppose to go between the body and fender? If so, how the heck do you get them in there?
If it's tight, I install them by hand without the use of a tool. Look at it and the procedure will become apparent.
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  #38  
Old Jan 6th, 13, 10:03 AM
makoshark makoshark is offline
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Jeremy
 
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Location: byhalia, ms
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Default Re: Panel alignment...gaps

Thanks for the videos. I've seen those before. I suppose those would be helpful to someone who is completely clueless as to where to begin. They lack any real detail in the actual procedure. Thanks though for pointing those out. Every little bit can help.

I guess I'm looking for a quick route to getting this front cap fitted the best it can before I have to start doing the modifications to get perfect gaps. I'm getting close with every little bit I do. I have spent the past several days up and down working on these and I'm a bit worn out. I'm just not conditioned enough to this process and I'm feeling it

Since walking away from it last night, I have realized my drivers door need to come in a tad at the fender. The outer/upper fender edge is not aligning properly to the adjacent door body line, not the mid line. I have shimmed the fender bolt in the door jamb in and out several time. I moved it back in this last time due to it pushing the fender mid line further off the plane from the door mid line. Reducing the amount of shims in the jamb brought the fender back in there as well as actually raised the top of the fender a tad. I think the driver's fender is about as well aligned as it can get. I just need to scooch the door in a bit at the fender.

I got frustrated on the passenger fender yesterday, so I called it quits after a while and bolted up the header panel, it needs either the fender holes or the holes on the header to be slotted for a better fit. I also installed the original, yet roached, lower valance onto the car along with GM fender extensions. The valance lined up well to the car. However, the passenger fender where it meets the top of the valance is an 1/8" low. I'm still contemplating on how to bring that up. A lot of curvature in the fender along with a lot of converging metal in that area. A dead blow hammer banging on that area brought zero results.

The driver's side lower fender extension, as it wraps around the front of the car to meet with the valance, is wrapping in too much. This is resulting in the front of the extension fitting lower than the valance panel plane. Another area that is going to require quite of bit of head scratching on how to make that fit better.
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  #39  
Old Jan 6th, 13, 04:50 PM
Sauron67MM Sauron67MM is offline
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Scott
 
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Default Re: Panel alignment...gaps

Is the hood on? If not things will change yet again. You'll get used to installing hoods alone. When aligning, I sometimes don't initially put shims in the jamb bolt. Insead I tighten the top fndr/cowl bolt leaving the fender proud of the door, and then tighten the jamb bolt till I hit my mark. Shims come in 1/16 and 1/8. I have 1/32 for times I want to fine tune. Procedure and the many steps vary with each car and part. Must think 2-3 steps ahead with every move.

Last edited by Sauron67MM; Jan 6th, 13 at 05:15 PM. Reason: typo
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  #40  
Old Jan 6th, 13, 05:05 PM
makoshark makoshark is offline
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Jeremy
 
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Location: byhalia, ms
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Default Re: Panel alignment...gaps

Hoods not on yet, but I installed the hinges just now and am going to have the hood on tomorrow. I purchased a shim kit on ebay that included 1/8", 1/16", 1/32" and 1/64" shims, so I have enough to really fine tune the fit. I'll pull all the shims back out tomorrow, throw the hood on and go from there. Stay tuned
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  #41  
Old Jan 12th, 13, 03:46 AM
makoshark makoshark is offline
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Jeremy
 
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Location: byhalia, ms
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Default Re: Panel alignment...gaps

I've still not made any significant progress on fitting this front cap. I have went back to working on door alignment. Even though the doors were aligned well, I'm trying to get a better fit. My goal is to get the doors, fenders and hood aligned as best they can be and then start slicing and dicing to get perfect fit. I don't want to start doing any cutting until I'm confident I have the panels fitted as best they can be fitted.
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  #42  
Old Jan 15th, 13, 01:16 AM
makoshark makoshark is offline
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Jeremy
 
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Default Re: Panel alignment...gaps

I was back at it again today. I commenced on checking the passenger door alignment. After many curse words, several thrown wrenches and a busted knuckle, here's where I am...

The door mid line is dead on, however the lower body line that blends from the quarter into the door then fender, is slightly off on the door to quarter. The door gap is very nice, however the door is just slightly below the quarter plane from the door mid body line to the top of the door. The door sits slightly lower than the quarter, but I can fix that problem with a little surgery to the quarter in that area. The gap between the door and rocker is perfect. The plane from the door to quarter is slightly out towards the rear of the door and slightly in towards the front. Obviously, the door needs to adjust out in the front to level it with the rocker and then move the striker in slightly to pull the rear in. This is the problem with adjusting the door to fit that way:

By moving the front of the door out to level it with the plane from the door to rocker, it forces me to add more shims in the door jamb fender bolt to pull the fender further out to match the door top body line. Pulling the striker in to suck the door in further would cause the door plane to quarter from the mid body line up to be further out of whack causing the door to be sunken in even further than now. I did notice the quarter window channel is about 1/16" to 1/8" narrow at the rear of that channel than the front of the channel next to the door. This would be a difficult area to even the channel out and I'm not sure those efforts would even really matter that much. There's inner structure in the quarter door jamb that would make adjustments to the quarter there extremely difficult. However, if I could suck in that area of the quarter, then I'm confident the quarter plane would match the door plane.

The door is pretty well aligned, given what I previously mentioned. The slight variances I mentioned are not even close enough to cause the fender alignment woes I'm experiencing. In order to get the fender mid body line to align with the door, here again, I lose alignment with the lower fender to door body line. Also, no matter how I shim the fender or don't shim the fender, I cannot get the fender mid line to not be 'proud' of the door mid line. The fender is ALWAYS, once tightened down, sticking out further than the door. The fender to door gap is not a problem. I am able to get whatever desired gap I want and it is fairly consistent from top to bottom. It will need some final tweaking once everything is completely aligned, if that ever happens, to get that 'perfect' gap. I'm essentially fighting this fender in three areas:

Top of fender edge to door body line.
Mid fender to door body line and keep the fender within the same plane of the door
Lower fender to door body line that only 67-8 Camaros have.

I am not one to quit, nor am I one to hand this over to someone else. This has become a vendetta between myself and this front cap. My frustrations come in with me not being able to accomplish my goal, as I am one that always has accomplished my goals. However, this one is seriously fighting me.
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  #43  
Old Jan 15th, 13, 01:20 AM
makoshark makoshark is offline
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Jeremy
 
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Default Re: Panel alignment...gaps

Few more pictures...
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  #44  
Old Jan 15th, 13, 12:50 PM
Steptoe Steptoe is offline
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Steps
 
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Default Re: Panel alignment...gaps

I havnt read all thru the thread.
Scott is the guru on panels / paint here.

Anyway yesterday I went out to reassenble my front clip.
1/ bolt on the inner gaurds
2/ alingned the door gaps to the body.
3/ hung the fenders on and with the rear bottom bolt and top bolt aligned them to the doors
4/ loose mounted the wheel well bolts
5/ loosely added the front panel and the hood catch centered
6/ mounted the hood...the hood catch bolts and the hood spring bolts where hand tight so I could 'slide' the hood into place square... the hood intially starts well back... and roughly set the hood to fender hights with the fender/ hindge bolts for each cnr.
7/ bolted up the front panel to fenders centered on the centered hood catch.
8/ With a 3x1" stick with carpet stapled over the end and a rubber mallet I can tap on the rear cnrs gently of thehood with it cliped down...sliding it forward, bit each side, a little 'twist'. to get gaps staight, and even... got it even on the 3rd go....
Since the windscreen cowl is off one can tighten up the rear hood / hindge bolts to hold in place when carefully release and lift the hood....then tighten the hood catch bolts and the front hood/ hindge bolts... and check alignment.
9/ set the front cnr hight adjuster screws...note 6/ these need to be in ball park.
10/now remove the lower window trim...align the screen cowl with the hood .. centered and gap...the top edges will align with the top of the fenders...there is tollerance to play with here because when the windscreen trim goes on it just covers the top edge.
11/ u will have ahuge gap either side of the cowl and fenders...this is now taken up with the fender bolt in the A piller above the door hindges. May require removal or add a shim at the bottom of fender to realigne the panel swages
12/ now mark and remove the cowl and bolt the bottom winscreen trim into correct place, slide thecowl into place and bolt down...dont forget the window washer tubes.
13/ remove the wheel arch bolts couple at a time and put the wheel arch trims on.
14/ shim up and add the fender bolt to firewall...
15/ assemble the wind block off bits behind the lights, battery tray, front lower cnr panels, cowl etc.

Took me a day, up to grill sitting in, screws/ bolts in place ready to lign up today,

And make sure u put the front side lights in and enblems the fender BEFORE the grill....
And the Camaro logo behind the wheel wells BEFORE putting the fender on.

Quote:
The fender is ALWAYS, once tightened down, sticking out further than the door
3/ above..
get the height right...shims under bolt top of firewall....
Then 'stretch' the fender down with shims in the bottom rear fender bolt....stretching pulls the fender in..a combo of stretch and sliding in on the bolt gets the center fender/ door swage right....have all the rest of the mounting bolts not in or very loose.
If cant get with other mounting bolts in, remove.. if then get it but the fender bolt holes dont line up, then i would suggest (assuming the panels are right shape) that the car may have had a accident in the pillar at some time of its life....may require sloting of a couple top fender mounting holes a couple mm.
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  #45  
Old Jan 15th, 13, 10:07 PM
makoshark makoshark is offline
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Jeremy
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: byhalia, ms
Posts: 1,144
Default Re: Panel alignment...gaps

Thanks Steps for the reply. I really do wish it were that easy to fit these panels. On the surface, it is that easy. Put shims in where needed and maybe a little twist here or pry there and the panels will fit as needed. However, my car is an anomaly, an enigma, if you will. This car has fought me since day one of taking it apart at going back together.

When I started this lengthy process of fully restoring this car, I began with a 100% GM bodied car. There is not a millimeter of this car that I have not touched. I know this car as well as I do the back of my hand. With that said, I know, without a shadow of a doubt, this car has never had any structural damage in its long history. I have installed the doors and have moved them in every conceivable way to make them fit. I have installed the fenders with ever conceivable way to fit them properly to the car. I have the panels, now, as bought as close to being lined up as I ever have. I began panel fitment about 3 weeks ago. I feel I have barely made any significant progress in having this step finished.

I made some measurements today to check to see if the front cap is square to the car. I measured vertically from the radiator support to the firewall on the passenger side and the drivers side. I got an equal 40" measurement. I also measured, diagonally, from a reference hole on top of the cowl to the hood adjustment bumpstops and was within 1/8" from side to side. I would call that well within spec and the cap square.

I am having 3 dilemmas I am dealing with. One is that I can get the mid body line to line up from the quarter, door to fender. However, with that body line laser straight, I cannot get the lower body line to line, only found on 67-8 bodies, with all three panels at the same time. Then there is the fact I cannot get the door to follow the same plane with the rocker panel and the quarter panel above the body line. The door is slightly sunk in from the quarter and the front of the door at the bottom is sunk in from the quarter as the rear is kicked out slightly from the rocker. If I pull the front bottom of the door out and move the door striker in slightly to get the door to follow the rocker plane, then that will pull the top half of the door further in from the quarter plane. I did notice the quarter window channel is an 1/8" wider at the front by the door than it is at the rear of this channel. I don't know how exactly to modify the quarter here to bring that area in as there is inner door jamb structure the quarter is mounted to.

I installed the hood again today with the front cap fitted the best I can get it to thus far. The gap is consistent from fender to hood, front to rear. However, I'm getting a larger gap on the passenger side than the driver side. I can't just move the hood over to the passenger side because that would move the hood off of its center line.

I am persistent and determined to defeat this poor panel fitment. However, my lack of experience at aligning panels is showing here. I feel there are industry inside information that I'm not able to figure out on my own from dealing with this. The only such trade secret I have been able to find is ProdigyCustoms 4x4 block of wood with 8# sledge hammer to bring the fender center body line level with the door. I tried that yesterday and was able to report I made no difference in that trick. I may not have been hitting it hard enough, but I am not willing to hit it any harder than I was.

I'm just at a loss with this one.
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Team Camaro Tech > First Generation Camaro Info and Tech - 1967- 1969 "Where it all started" > Body Shop      Current Topic: Panel alignment...gaps
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