Team Camaro Tech banner

11 Second 2nd Gen Questions

17K views 36 replies 11 participants last post by  ace's68 
#1 ·
Hello, I am new to the forums. I am picking up a 79 camaro with a 454/TH400 in it. The rear end, engine, and trans is all stock. I was wondering with a 3k budget if it's possible to put this car into 11 second quarters and still be able to drive it on the street. The 454 is originally from a truck. Thanks.
 
#2 ·
I've got a 69 with a 502 and a th400 4:10 gears out back. I used a trans brake and a hand me down pair of slicks and went 11's all day. I have had the car 3 years its been driven on the street 99% of the time. As long as you can afford the gas your goal is very possible I would say. The 3 speed sucked for any long drives so I added a gear vendor and now its very driver friendly.
 
#3 ·
I believe you're gonna need heads, camshaft, gears, tires, wheel studs and nuts, C-clip eiliminators for the rear axle, torque convertor, traction device, driveshaft loop, frame connectors, and most important, a weight reduction program for the car, plus a rollbar if you go under 11.5 seconds.

In lieu of engine work, you might get by with a turbocharger, with a camshaft, or nitrous injection, but still will need the rest of the devices mentioned.

I also believe its called Snowball Effect.
 
#4 ·
Everett is right on I think, if you eliminate all the safety equipment needed to go 11's 3k will still get burned up pretty quick. It should be pretty easy to get into the 12's, but that depends on what rear end you are working with too. Is it a posi? Gear ratio?

First thing to do is get the rear end in shape with a decent Posi if it doesn't have one, and buy some Caltrac bars for it, then move on to the motor and trans. You may be able to leave the trans alone for now but a good converter is probably going to be a big help.

The motor if totally stock is going to need some top end work probably, a decent cam and matching parts, an intake probably, etc. etc. Like Everett points out it's a snowball effect, bigtime.

Your best bet is to look for good deals from buddies or swap meets (be very careful about what you buy used from the 'net or swapmeets). It might take some time but you could get close with 3k and some serious bargain shopping.

Another question, can you do the majority of work yourself? Have you owned a car like this before or raced 1/4 mile before?

Throw a 250 horse nitrous kit on it and it will go 11's once at least...;)
 
#5 ·
You didn't really give us enough info. Rear gear ratio? Posi? Traction bars? Let us know everything you have to work with at this point.

A bone stock truck 454 is NOT going to go 11's without some help.

One of the first things you want to make sure you have is sub frame connectors, I prefer the weld in type, but bolt ins are better than nothing. Unibody cars like to twist and it doesn't take long to start cracking the sail panels and having door issues.

$3K should get you there depending on what you have to work with right now. A good shift kit in the transmission will be all you need for your goal the th400 is a pretty solid piece. Shift kit and a decent converter.

Sean and Everett both gave you good advice.
 
#6 ·
I didn't give that much info because I pick the car up Saturday. Ill definitely post more info when I get it. I appreciate all the advice already given. I have raced 1/4 before in a unibody car, bu it was a fox mustang. I know what it takes to get one of those cars down the track, but I'm a Chevy guy born and raised and I'm coming back to my roots lol. The guy "says" it's a factory posi rear end but doesn't know gear ratio or anything. I have a build list. I was thinking Lakewood 90/10 front shocks and 50/50 rears, a rear end girdle, subframes weld in of course, 4.10 gears, trans go full manual shift kit and B&M quick silver shifter, it has headers I'm going with SLP resonator mufflers, it also has an intake(not sure what kind) and a holley 750 carb. I can't decide what I want to do with the rear because I don't know if I can stick with the factory posi(if it has it) and throw gears at it, run a spool, or throw a locker in it. Also what is this Big Block BSE power by Ed I've read about?
 
#7 ·
That 8.5" rear end will hold up fine to your 11 second goal. You will need to make some modifications though, but until you get it in your hands and see what you have hard to make a suggestion. It may already have everything you need. You also don't "need" 4.10's to run 11's I ran 11's with a SBC and 3.42's in a 2nd gen Camaro pump gas car.

The whole Ed deal is touchy and he has been kicked off many boards. Go over to www.Yellowbullet.com and ask there, he is still a member there. Almost every thread he's a part of turns out bad.
 
#9 ·
What Royce said, the 8.5 is a good rear end actually (is that what it has?) I have gone 11.40's with one and a GM clutch style posi.

Once you get it let us know what it has, if it has the basics rear end wise and you know how to work on cars, you can make your goal of 11's I think. It won't be easy and you may have to do some bargain shopping, which is cool anyway in my opinion.

As for the 'BSE' power thing... like Royce said. There is nothing that can be done to a BBC or SBC that has not been done yet I don't think, and Ed surely holds no secrets to anything, he may tell you otherwise..lol.
I don't know if he's on YB anymore either, no one gets banned there but they do get run off..haha.

Also I speak your language, lifetime Chevy guy but I had a 5.0 foxbody for a long time, still have it in fact, awesome cars. I still love both my Ford and Chevy, any fast car is cool by my.
 
#8 ·
Ok I gotcha I appreciate it. I was just asking about the Ed deal because I read a board of a guy that had followed his power recipe and was running awesome numbers for what he had. I'm not here to judge anyone but definitely willing to take advise from someone who knows what they are doing. And please don't take that as I'm saying you all don't know just as much or more than he does. I've just read a board of his is all. I really wish I had more info on the car. Also if you know how to lighten this bad boy I could definitely use some pointers there as well
 
#10 ·
That's the way I see it too. I built my fox into a 12 second car with 1500 dollars and a lot of time in the heads. I am very mechanically inclined. If I can port the stock heads and get enough flow with a good cam and intake on the engine to be worthwhile, I will definitely do it. I was also thinking of either milling the heads, or swapping out the pistons to some domes for higher compression. I know everything that can be done to these things has been done already. I am also the kind of person that would prefer to do things the old school way. I mean that as in porting the heads/intake myself. If there are any tricks to pulling a few more hp out of the car or 1/10's I'm down. Like I said it's going to be a street/strip car but not afraid to yank seats and pull front sway bars and stuff. I can't wait to get this car so I'll know everything it's got. I'm hoping for the factory 8.5" 10 bolt with 3.73 posi. Crossing my fingers.
 
#11 ·
The hot ticket was to pull a rear end out of a late 70's Z-28 (I've done it several times myself) they use to be plentyful. If that's what you have you will be in good shape, it will be an 8.5" either way, but if it came out of a Z it will have either 3.42's from an automatic car or 3.73's from a 5 speed car. I've owned my share of 2nd gen Camaro's.

You can ditch the front sway bar right off the bat, the car will still handle fine. The stock hoods on those things weigh a lot. There are crash bars in the doors and those weigh quite a bit. The typical removing or trimming the inner fender wells or getting plastic/fiberglass replacements.
 
#13 ·
A girdle, probably, not. But, one item I do to every rear axle is weld a plate from the top of the tube to the end of the spring perch width-wise, both front and rear.
The spring perch is only welded by the perch uprights(?), vertical sides on the outside of the perch. Not much support or strength. Also, check the tubes where the perches are welded for cracks, very common. Merely a suggestion, if you do weld the cracks, use 6310 rod.
Adding a plate trianglates the perch for strength and lengthens the lever. A triangle is the strongest shape. For every action, there is a reaction. Turn the reaction into forward motion.
Hopefully, the heads aren't truck castings as they will have small ports, peanut ports, they're called - best for creating torque - truck engine, remember?
 
#15 ·
Heads are definitely where the power is at, if the castings are not great for performance you can look for some of the older castings, I believe 049(?) big block heads are real good oval port heads.
I'm a small block guy, and the big blocks I have spent all my time on don't run factory stuff, there are tons of guys on here that know 'em though. When you get the car you'll just have to check everything out, who knows what you'll have.

I beat the living crap out of my stock 8.5 with a GM posi from a Caprice and a 3.73 gearset (I actually still have it come to think of it). Went 11.40s and 1.56 in the 60' behind my 406. Worked great actually, I just upgraged the posi and axles before a problem cropped up.

Some good info in here for you to get started anyway, it will be a fun car! :thumbsup:
 
#16 ·
So I'm hoping that when I get the car home I'm going to have the 781 casting. Fingers crossed on that one. I was thinking if this is the case, then milling the heads and putting the bigger 2.19/1.88 valves in them with new valve job guides and seals. I can blend the bowls and do a real good port match on them. A decent cam, lifters, and springs with a new timing set. Here's my question, would it be better to mill the heads to get compression up, or go ahead and swap pistons? Or both?
 
#17 ·
I would figure out what function the car is going to do.
If street, build for torque. This work, force x distance, is the effort you feel when pegging your "Seat-Of-the-Pants meter."
If track, build for horsepower, aka, speed.
Torque is a measured quantity, horsepower is calculated from torque.
JMT's
 
#18 ·
The function of the car is going to be an 11 second street car. I don't want to go deep 11's because I want to be able to race some sanctioned events without having to put cages and crazy stuff into it just yet. It's definitely not going to be a straight up race car for a while. In fact it will be my daily driver for a while.
 
#19 ·
So I got the car yesterday, and it's definitely a 454 big block with a turbo 400 and a posi 8.5 ten bolt. The motor has stock cam stock peanut port heads casting 236 and a weiand stealth intake, and vacuum secondary holley carb. What would be the best thing to do? I can pick up a stock untouched set of 781 heads for 300 dollars. Should I? Thanks for all the help.
 
#21 ·
You guys know Ed, eh? Man that guy has a hornets nest about his head always.

I met Ed in person at a big footbrake race last year, was a decent kind of guy during those 3 minutes. Got a very neat car I will say. He seems to need controversy.

The 781 heads for 300 bucks, as long as they have been checked and are good is not a bad deal. I have bought them cheaper, but as long as the seats don't need to be replaced and they are cracked 300 would work in my book.

Everett, Sean, and Royce have all given you good info that I can't improve upon. I think the 781's with a nice solid lifter flat tappet, safety improvements, good fuel and exhaust, can make enough power to get you in the 11's for 3K.
 
#22 ·
You dont need C-clip eliminators,or a roll bar to run 11's. You need a bar to go faster then 11.50,and C-clip eliminators to go faster then 10.99,and to be honest,with an automatic,and under 5000 stall,I doubt you will brake stock axles even running well into the 10's.

I have done some real strong low buck combos. It all depends on the condtion of what you have. If the 454 isnt tired,you can pic up some power on a budget by swapping on a set of closed chamber large oval heads from a 60's era bigblock. These heads are still fairly cheap,and usually easy to find on Ebay ect. I wouldnt spend big money or effort on them though. I would have them freshened with a good 3 angle valve job and back cut on the stock valves,fresh springs,and have them milled about .030" . This will get you over 9:1 with the engine you have(which is probably really about 7.5:1 right now). From there,go with a mild flat tappet hydraulic cam that will keep you under 6000 rpm. I have run the Isky 280 Mega cam in a few combos like this. You can run that cam with stock rockers,but a cheap set of 1.8:1 rollers like Harland Sharps is money well spent. From there,find an older single plane intake,I prefer to original design Torker(the one where the carb sits crooked),and port match it to the heads. This intake likes a 1" spacer if you have the room for it. Top it off with any double pumper you can find that 750 or large cfm,and make sure that whatever air cleaner you use as at least 1" over the top of the choke horn. Either mill the horn,or use a riser under the air cleaner and a hood scoop to get the room. You will need to track tune the carb,and might not get to your goal out of the box. A good performance HEI and low resistance wires like MSD wires is more then enough spark. Use a set of inexspensive heads,my choice is the Hooker regular competition headers for the 70-72 application. They fit 73 and later if you cut a small notch in the upper part of the 73 and later motor mounts. You will need good exhaust. Summit makes a low priced kit in 3" that they sell without mufflers,and you can then add better mufflers to that.

I would use solid body mounts,and bolt inframe connectors,then have the connectors welded to the front subframe and welded to the braces that they come close to under the floors. This is much different then real weld in connectors that require cutting a channel out of the floor and doing a lot of other work.

From there,you should run about a 3000 stall convertor,and the biggest RV/Towing trans cooler you can fit into the front of the car. A shift kit in the trans doesnt really add any signifigant performance,it is just a personal preferance. With 28" tall sticky tires and slapper bars I would run 3.42's or 3.55's,while you could run 3.90's with 30" tall tires.

This is just a ball park on what you need to get a 3600# car into the basement 12's high 11's depending on the altitude and how fresh your parts are.
 
#23 ·
Does anybody know about what power level you have to be at in order to turn 11's? I'm pushing for about 500hp, but I know I have to get the compression up to get there. Can I turn 11's on a good cam with my peanut port heads and my intake and carb setup with good exhaust if I can get her to stick and launch hard with the stall converter?
 
#24 ·
How fast/quick it goes is more a function of the combination of the right parts than just buying parts. Rich gave you a decent combo to start with, where all the parts work together in the same RPM range where the car is going to utilize the power it makes. As far as how much power it takes to run 11s, I've seen guys go 12s with 600hp, and guys with 300hp and a perfectly matched combo run 11s. Vehicle weight, suspension, torque converter, and the engine combination being matched to the vehicle and application, are more critical than just the hp number. If you run too much gear and your car goes through the traps at 7000 rpm with a cam that only makes power to 5500 rpm.... You get the picture:)
 
#25 ·
I understand making a matching combo, just looking for a rough estimate for the average amount of hp required to get the car to move fast enough for 11's. I appreciate Rich's help, I have a weiand stealth intake that is good from idle to 5800 rpms, I already have 2" primary long tube headers, and a 750 holley vacuum secondary. Are those all good substitutions to the intake and carb he mentioned? I am also looking at a Lunati Bare Bones hydraulic flat tappet cam with .527/.553 lift, 290/300 adv duration and 224/234 duration at .050 with a lobe separation of 112 and an intake center line of 107 with an RPM range of 1500-5500. Plus a 3500 stall converter. Lakewood traction bars, 90/10 front shocks, and 50/50 rear shocks.
 
#28 ·
That sounds like a pretty good starting point. I'd skip the lakewoods and go right to caltracs, they work very well, but it's a matter of personal preference. On a 28" tire with 3.42s in my GN in full street trim (pump gas, 3550 lbs) I trapped 117 and change at a tick over 5100 RPM with easy mid 11 sec ETs. That's the only car I've had in the past few years near your weight and ET goal. On race gas, the car dipped into the 10s. With the parts you mentioned, you should, depending on converter slip, basically hit the traps right at the top of your power peak. If you can 60' the car in the low 1.6x to high 1.5x range you should have no problem running the number you want. There's more "real world" stuff that will require some tuning out like converter selection and tire height, but you need a good baseline to work from before you have something to improve on. Another factor to keep in mind... where are you racing? Up here on the east coast, we get some pretty good air density. An 11.50 car here may run low 12s in another part of the country.
 
#26 ·
I was wondering would it be worth it to put a set of 1:8 roller rockers on the peanut port heads and run this cam or will the heads stop making power before the cam and intake are out? If this is the case then I can either pick up the 781's for 300 or try to find some of the older closed chamber heads. Also can I get some casting numbers to look for when it comes to older closed chamber heads?
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top