[Rich-Allen]

I was thinking of buying one of these LS Crate engines for my car.
Its rated at 440 hp and 420 ft lbs.
Costs is $5,000 from GMPP. Or i could buy an LS6 for another $1500. The LS6 has 40 less hp but has the reliability of EFI.
If I was to buy this engine what kind of spark controller would I need?
What about any other electronics to make this motor run in a 1st gen?
Any help, ideas or opinions are greatly appreciated.
Considering the purchase next week.

Rich

[Silver69Camaro]

I just got my LS1 started last Friday, and it's all OE EFI. Man, that is the best thing I've ever done. EFI, to me, is the best thing since sliced bread.

Dont get me wrong, I love carbs too. I've got all the wideband tuning equipment and I'm very knolwedgable with them. But geez, EFI sure is cool. Starts easy every time, idles perfectly, dead-nuts reliable. The extra dough is worth it.

[Rich-Allen]

Matt, other than the engine what did you pay for all the electrical stuff to make it run?

What about fitment?

Thanks,
Rich

[bearcat44]

www.ls1tech.com
look in the hybrids section. There is a COMPLETE write up on the first gen install of a ls1. It will give you everything you need to know and more. Give it a try those guys are great.

[Silver69Camaro]

Originally Posted by Rich-Allen

Matt, other than the engine what did you pay for all the electrical stuff to make it run?

What about fitment?

Thanks,
Rich

LS1tech.com is a good resource.

Anyway, here's a short breakdown:
computer reprogramming: $300
New fuel tank pump, sender: $600
Wiring harness: Free (came with motor, reworked it myself)
O2 & IAT Sensor: $135

That's about it...so a little over $1000. Honestly, I'll probably save that much or more over time with the extra gas savings.

I purchased my LS1 used and complete with computer and wiring. This is the way to go IMO, just about everything is included and it's already a proven runner.

Fitment is great, except I'm running an AME front clip.

[Rodder]

I'm running an LS1/T56 in my '68. I love it too, especially now that my T56 has all 6 gears working. I have a rough spreadsheet of what I spent at http://www.blown.net/ls1swap/partslist.html. A lot of stuff there is upgrades, not required for a basic swap. I bought a complete used engine and transmission with all original wiring, sensors, computer, accessories, etc. There are 5 connectors from the 4th gen engine harness that need to be hooked up to get it running in the 1st gen, and it wasn't a big deal--I spent maybe $250 on connectors/relays/wire and had a ton left over. Everything you need to know about wiring it is in the stickies in the Conversions and Hybrids forum on ls1tech.com.

Mounting isn't a big deal, you buy or build adapter plates to adapt SBC mounts to the LS1 block. I'm partial to the ATS-style plates myself (moves engine down and back), ok with the S&P plates (back the same as ATS, but not down), hate the Hooker plates (way too far back), and laugh at the BMR plates (up and forward). I've heard unconfirmed rumors that the Hooker plates will work with a stock LS1 Fbody oil pan, but all of the other require an aftermarket pan or cutting/welding the stock Fbody pan. The BMR plates also require you modify the subframe to convert to their front-steer rack & pinion setup.

Mounting the T56 required a custom crossmember and shortened driveshaft, not much different from running a T56 behind an SBC.

You could convert the carb'd LS2 back to EFI if you wanted to. Depends on your budget, there's all kinds of things you can do . I think most people are running either the Edelbrock or the MSD spark controllers made specifically for that crate motor. I think I've read the MSD has better adjustability. I've also seen people fed up with both who've replaced the timing cover with one tht has a distributor drive provision.

[JimM]

Don't the crate motors include a standalone harness and computer?

If they don't, I saw an ad in last month's hot rod that painless has some offerings.

Also, the last time I was over drooling at holley.com, I saw they are selling retrofit system for those and other efi motors now, commander 950 controller bundled with a standalone harness.

[Rich-Allen]

Originally Posted by JimM

Don't the crate motors include a standalone harness and computer?

If they don't, I saw an ad in last month's hot rod that painless has some offerings.

Also, the last time I was over drooling at holley.com, I saw they are selling retrofit system for those and other efi motors now, commander 950 controller bundled with a standalone harness.

The following is the discription of the motor from GMPP.

DESCRIPTION: LS 364/440 ENGINEThe General Motors LS Family of small-block engines broke new ground with efficiency and power levels never before imagined. GM Performance Parts offers several of these engines as complete assemblies ready to bolt in to your project car as a replacement or upgrade. And now for the first time, GM Performance Parts has taken one of our LS2 engines and added to it a blast from the past, our LS1 4-barrel intake manifold! Based on the LS2 engine, the LS 364/440 ships with an aluminum LS block, which has a deep-skirt and six-bolt mains. Other features include lightweight flat-top pistons with a 10.9:1 compression, powdered-metal rods, and a nodular iron crankshaft. The LS6-style cylinder heads are truly high performance pieces that deliver large amounts of air to the awaiting engine. The camshaft specs out with .500/.500" lift numbers, and has been specifically designed to work with the LS Family. The LS 364/440 is easy to install with all of the major components shipping to you in one big box. Take advantage of this opportunity to enjoy the latest evolution of the small-block Chevy. The LS 364/440 is rated at 440 horsepower and is a true blending of new technology with a proven air/fuel induction piece.

I sent them an email but haven't heard back yet. I am curious what the words "Mojor Componets" actually means.

Thanks everyone for the feedback
The price of addmission was worth every penny!


Rich

[Rodder]

Originally Posted by JimM

Don't the crate motors include a standalone harness and computer?

If they don't, I saw an ad in last month's hot rod that painless has some offerings.

Also, the last time I was over drooling at holley.com, I saw they are selling retrofit system for those and other efi motors now, commander 950 controller bundled with a standalone harness.

Nope, they don't come with computers. I think the only GMPP crate engines that come with computers and harness are the the RamJets.

I haven't tried the Painless or Holley ECMs, but looking at the specs they are pretty much a joke compared to the stock GM PCM plus good tuning software like HP Tuners VCMSuite or EFILive. I don't know what just a Holley ECM costs, but I could buy HPTuners, a custom wiring harness, and half a dozen GM PCMs for the price of the Painless LS1 ECM. And if you figure in the dyno time of having to tune Painless ECM (it's speed-density only)...

[JimM]

I was just throwing a few suggestions out "Reverend."

Did you have any specific suggestions, if we assume a motor with no harness, no sensors, & no computer?

He's gonna need a lil more than a tuner.

[Rodder]

Hey Jim, I didn't mean to come off as attacking you, I just really hate those low-end aftermarket ECMs that cost a fortune compared to the much more advanced factory PCMs.

My recommendation is the LS1 wiring and computer, and there are a bunch of different ways you can get there--it's just parts. And time. And money. I've nickel and dimed myself to death before ordering individual parts for something I wasn't familiar with (Mazda rotary rebuild), so I'm a bit partial to getting everything at once. I haven't seen anyone selling a complete retrofit kit for a GMPP LSX crate motor, so you can either buy a used engine+harness+computer to get all of the parts, or buy new or used parts individually. I don't know exactly what sensors the crate engines come with--it may be everything except the IAT and MAF. The electrical stuff isn't the only stuff you need though, you also need accessory brackets, accessories, oil pan, and probably a couple of other things that I'm forgetting right now.

Here are a few options:

Option one: purchase a complete FBody LS1 (with harness, computer, and accessories) with a bad bottom end, rape it for parts, and sell the rest.

Option two: buy a running Fbody LS1 ((with harness, computer, and accessories), rape it for parts, and sell the rest.

Option three: buy parts individually. You can probably find almost everything you need in the forsale forums over on ls1tech.com and/or ebay. Some parts you'll probably want to replace with custom stuff anyway like the oilpan. If you're build a bling-bling show car, you'll probably want to use fancy S&P accessory brackets instead of the stock cast brackets. For wiring, you can buy custom harness from someone like Speartech, buy a used harness and pay someone like Speartech to convert it to a retrofit harness, or buy a used harness and hook it up yourself. The LS1 harness is almsot standalone as it is--it's only 5 connectors between the LS1 engine/PCM harness and the rest of the car, and there are plenty of wiring digrams for how to hook it up. You are basically just hooking it up to relays and fuses. The most popular harness/PCM is 99-02 Fbody, but any LS1/LS6 computer and harness will work.

[Rich-Allen]

I found a video of the LS2 with the carb. online. They installed the LS2 Hotcam and LS2 CNC heads and claimed a nice 505hp with 455 ft (at the rear wheels) daily driver.

Also during my search I found LS2 crate engines (EFI) for $5600 in numerous places. The wife gave me the go ahead to snatch one up so that's exactly what I am going to do.

I wanted to thank everyone for the posts in the thread. The only questions I didn't really get answered is; when using the LS 440/364 do you still need an ECM? I hate wiring and that's why I thought the carburetor model might be better suited for me.
From what I gathered here and on LS1tech, everyone thinks the EFI is the better route to go.

Rich

[JimM]

Originally Posted by Rodder

Hey Jim, I didn't mean to come off as attacking you...

Nor did I intend to jump down your throat, Ron. I was just looking for more hard info. Your followup post provided exactly that.

This whole subject (efi retrofits and LSx engines is one I am very interested in, and also an area where our collective public knowledge here at Team Camaro is both lacking and unorganized.

Let's hear more?

[JimM]

Rich, from what I've read, the 434/364 is a carburated 6.0, no fuel electronics required, tho I'm not sure how the ignition is handled, as I don't think this block has anyplace to put a distributor, or even a mechancal fuel pump.

[jeffhansen@charter.net]

Has anyone mounted an EFI fuel pump inside a fuel cell, like a Harwood or RCI. The suggetion is keep the pump in the tank... appreciate your thoughts