[Malibu Vette]

I am currently buildin a 69 Camaro with a LS1/700R4 swap. I had a Fab 9 rear-end built and now need to look at the front of the car. It is a factory disc brake car. My question is, do I buy a complete front clip with rack and pinion and brakes for around $4000 (TCI) or install a set of Speedtech or Globalwest tubular a-arms and a decent set of coil over shocks and notch the pan for the crossmember for around $2000? The car will be a driver and likely on 100+ mile trips. Thanks!

[dhutton]

Take a look at the front clip from Art Morrison. It costs more but you can use the stock F body oil pan and accessory drives. You also don't need to beat on your headers with a hammer to make them fit. It's a well thought out and designed front clip. I studied them all for months before I went with the Art Morrison clip.

Don

[Rich-Allen]

Chris Alston subframes seem to be very popular also.

If you choose to go with the stock sub frame (like I did) plan on spending $6k for "everything".

U&L Control Arms (DSE)
Tie rod, pitman arm, end link ect.
QA1 aluminum coil over shocks
Hotchkis Springs & sway bay
Baer 13" disc front and 11" rear
New brake lines
Quick ratio steering box.
Baer Master Cyl. and booster

Good luck with your project.

Rich

[Mark SC&C]

I`ll throw another combo into the mix. Use an ATS oil pan and motor mounts,then you don`t have to notch the crossmember and you`ll have a good baffled pan. Install a StreetComp AFX with tall forged aluminum spindles and 13" Baer GT brakes for less than $2,000 and have much better geometry/performance than the TCI Mustang 2/Pinto street rod front end. Round it out with one of Lee`s beautifully valved fast ratio steering boxes. There`s a LOT of options out there right now,take your time and check them out before you buy. Be particularly careful with companies that cater to street rods. The prevailing attitude in that market is that parts just have to look good and don`t have to work because their customers "are just cruisin". Mark SC&C

[davidpozzi]

I'm going to post a cheaper alternative to each of Rich's ideas.


U&L Control Arms (DSE) - Speed Tech is cheaper, or get Global West arms bare and transfer your balljoints but don't re-use your old shaft, it won't work if it has bolts on the ends.

Tie rod, pitman arm, end link ect. - Shop around for deals
QA1 aluminum coil over shocks - Nice but coil overs don't help handling, just make adjusting easier. any shock will work, for cheaper Moog springs I have some listed on my web page, or get circle track "hidden" type and use a threaded adjuster on top. the adjuster is difficult to get at to adjust though.

Hotchkis Springs & sway bay - See above cheaper springs, tuners use 600 lb rate coils Adco bars from summit will work.
Baer 13" disc front and 11" rear - lots of deals on the net or find a junk yard. You can also order rebuilt calipers and pay the core charge. get new rotors at auto parts store.

New brake lines - Make your own
Quick ratio steering box. - You can get a "Cardone" rebuilt box for a third gen IROC or Trans Am, get adapters for the hoses from Lee, also a new rag joint.

Baer Master Cyl. and booster - Re use your booster and get an early 70's Ford master cyl with 15/16" bore.

Rear springs were not mentioned specifically, - I feel they are very important to getting a good handling setup. I have experience with the Hotchkis and GW cat5 leafs, I like the Hotchkiis, and the CAT5 are great but very stiff and the ride is more harsh. I think the CAT5's are more for very hiigh horsepower cars, or for people that are VERY serious about competition events like autocross and open track. If I had 450 engine hp and drove on the street, I'd go with the Hotchkis leafs.

[dhutton]

When you are doing the comparisons don't forget to include the cost of your LSx conversion. There are hidden costs here:

oilpan - $450 to $850 or more if you choose one requiring a remote filter. Most stock clip conversions and aftermarket clips require a new oil pan. A couple of the aftermarket clips can use the stock oil pan. Do some research before notching the factory pan - there's a few guys out there who have fried their motors.

accessory drives - this can add up quickly if you are going to have air conditioning. It can be anywhere from $700 to $3000+ if you cannot reuse the factory accessory drive. Not all aftermarket clips can resuse the stock AC drive. Most solutions with a stock clip cannot use the factory AC drive.

headers - the headers for some of the solutions can cost $2000. There are lower cost options but some need multiple beatings with a hammer to clear the steering. Check out the ls1tech.com conversions section.

If you are not doing an LSx conversion I think modifying the stock subframe would come out ahead hands down. Add in an LSx conversion and the decision is not so clear cut.

Don

[classiccars1]

we installed a new, entirely bolt on subframe from ccm custom rods. it's lightweight, utilizes re-engineered MII tubular arms, spindles, screwin ball joints, Rack and pinion steering, GM rotors with GM calipers and pads, Coilovers, and adjustable motor mounts.

Bolts directly to the four body mounts, using the original bushings, core support bolts up with NO modification.

Install big or small block, lsx, and no need for any Modifications. Headers fit even Summit, and flowtech, full length. all brake line brackets are there. Trans Crossmember supports any trans and is fully adjustable. It's looks awesome.

Here's the best part it's only $2100.00

[camcojb]

Originally Posted by classiccars1

we installed a new, entirely bolt on subframe from ccm custom rods. it's lightweight, utilizes re-engineered MII tubular arms, spindles, screwin ball joints, Rack and pinion steering, GM rotors with GM calipers and pads, Coilovers, and adjustable motor mounts.

Bolts directly to the four body mounts, using the original bushings, core support bolts up with NO modification.

Install big or small block, lsx, and no need for any Modifications. Headers fit even Summit, and flowtech, full length. all brake line brackets are there. Trans Crossmember supports any trans and is fully adjustable. It's looks awesome.

Here's the best part it's only $2100.00

sounds like you work there. I would not use any Mustang II based suspension if I was looking for a handling upgrade. Street rod, maybe, but not a pro-touring type build.

Jody

[Rich-Allen]

David, I agree with your post 100%. I just figured since he spent the cash to setup the back with a Fab 9 rear, he was looking for a little show to go with the performance.


Rich

[classiccars1]

i understand about the mm II, but the only parts used based on the mm II are the arms and they are re-engineered. the spindles and steering arms are STOCK camaro.

[Rob's 67]

I'm building much the same type of car. Chris Alston's Fab 9 with his 4-link. The car has been back halfed with a 12 point roll cage. Just today I received my front frame and suspension from Detroit speed. The total cost is about the same. So far all the pieces seem to be very high quality. The only real problem with Detroit Speed is that they wildly underestimate the time it takes them to deliver their product. My frame was promised 4/1/2007! It did not arrive until 6/27/07. They do simplify the LSX bolt in. I'm using a Dart Big M block but an LSX will bolt right in with their mounts. Rob.

[jeff wheeler]

I totally agree with Mark SC&C and David Pozzi. I have done alot of research on this before turning my frame off resto 68 SS into more a Pro Touring car. Give Tyler @ ATS (American Touring Specialties) a call and they can help you get almost all that you want for your 69. Go by Tyler's, David's, Mark's and many other knowledgable people on other forums, I built a excellent handling Camaro, that has given a few newer C5's a run for their money. I have a total Hotckis TVS suspension system (lowers front 2" & rear 1 1/2", matched valved (Hotchkis)Bilstein shocks, (no rear sway bar, not needed) Global West tubular UCA's, factory LCA's w/ Del-a-lum bushings (no benifit to tubular lowers, unless running coil overs), Global West solid body bushings, Global West subframe connectors, ATS "AFX Tall" aluminum spindles/hub assy. w/ C6 brakes ( FYI Z06 6 piston brakes bolt directly to the AFX spindle, along with many others, just watch your wheel size and choices), New Delphi 600 12.7:1 ratio Lee Manuf. steering box,Short steering arms, Hydro tech hydro boost, Hotchkis 1 1/8 hollow front sway bar, ATS aligned the car. Tyler @ATS had said that the car handles exceptional. Please stay away from any of the "Hot Rod" shops frames if handling is your goal. Not to knock their product, but a properly prepped stock frame, will out perform most aftermarket ones. ATS offers a prepped stock frame with a wide range of options to suit your needs. All this in a 68 with a approx. 500hp iron headed 427 w/ 700R4 12bolt w/ 3.31. This car loves it at over 130mph!! Please take advantage of guys like David, Mark and Tyler. David's website is awesome. Mark w SC&C can get you hooked up also. Tyler @ ATS can fix up up with everthing for your LS swap (mounts, steering, headers, serpintine front system oil pan, crossmember, spindles, etc.) Hope this long winded post helps. I've been there before for days, weeks, months, researching and asking people in the know, before I made a move. Next I'll go into the LS/ T56 to really be more Pro Touring. Good Luck, Jeff

[Rocketrod]

Don't forget to consider an Air Ride setup with ATS spindles...

[James67RS]

I am a really big fan of the American Touring Specialties Chicane-LM front suspension. We are using it on our OneLapCamaro build and I am also going to use it on my wife's "pro-touring lite" '67. As many have said before me, it is surprising what a modified original sub is capable of.

Upper coil over mount coversion:


GW upper and lower CA's, Penske dual adjustable shocks, AFX tall spindles with short steering arms, Baer tracker rod ends and a 670 series power steering box.





Its definately worth giving Tyler a call.

James
www.OneLapCamaro.com

[Silver69Camaro]

Originally Posted by jeff wheeler

Please stay away from any of the "Hot Rod" shops frames if handling is your goal. Not to knock their product, but a properly prepped stock frame, will out perform most aftermarket ones.

You bring up a good point, I understand what you're talking about. But, you may want to elaborate on the term "hot rod shops" to give everybody else an idea of your point who may not be familiar with the aftermarket subframe market.