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  #1  
Old Oct 28th, 07, 12:48 PM
zgoat zgoat is offline
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Default 1970 Copo ???s

My freind has a 70 z28 RS with the 360 HP 350. He has the buildsheet and window sticker that came with the car. He was told the car might be a copo order Camaro. Can you tell by the doc. if it,s truly a copo car and how? And if it is whats the value vs a plain 1970 Z28.
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  #2  
Old Oct 28th, 07, 01:55 PM
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Gary L Gary L is offline
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Default Re: 1970 Copo ???s

Can't help with the value, but COPO has to do with having the Firebird spoiler.
http://www.camaros.net/forums/showth...ight=1970+copo.
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  #3  
Old Oct 28th, 07, 05:28 PM
rich pern rich pern is offline
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Default Re: 1970 Copo ???s

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgoat View Post
My freind has a 70 z28 RS with the 360 HP 350. He has the buildsheet and window sticker that came with the car. He was told the car might be a copo order Camaro. Can you tell by the doc. if it,s truly a copo car and how? And if it is whats the value vs a plain 1970 Z28.

I have a 70 COPO Z, and happen to have the original build sheet as well. And while far from an authority, I have seen at least two other build sheets. Mine has been certified by Jerry MacNeish as the real deal.

There is something unique on the buildhseets that I have seen that shows the COPO order.

First, start with what is the production date on the trim tag? The 9796 COPO was only available for a short time in 70. Secondly, if it was the original spoiler, there is something unique about them as well.

Search this site and nasty z28 and their is plenty to read on this!

Rich
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  #4  
Old Oct 29th, 07, 06:12 AM
bigblockpace bigblockpace is offline
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Default Re: 1970 Copo ???s

Phil from Ohio has one!
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  #5  
Old Oct 29th, 07, 07:39 PM
z10kl z10kl is offline
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Default Re: 1970 Copo ???s

A 69 COPO makes a base car a special high performance car.
A 70 COPO is a spoiler on a regular production option car.
Not exactly the same thing.
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  #6  
Old Oct 30th, 07, 07:02 AM
JOE58 JOE58 is offline
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Default Re: 1970 Copo ???s

In my opinion, a 69 427 COPO and a 70 COPO tall spoiler car are not the same as far as the level of performance upgrade but they are the same as far as the principle used.

They are both examples of the way Chevy used the COPO process to support racing in a secretive manner since they were not supposed to be involved with racing.

The COPO tall spoiler was needed to help the 70 Trans Am Camaro teams just as a minimum of 50 cars were required to make the 427 COPO Camaros (iron and alum) legal for the NHRA Super Stock class.

The 70 COPO tall spoiler cars are a part of the interesting history of the Chevy underground racing team.
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  #7  
Old Oct 30th, 07, 08:08 AM
rich pern rich pern is offline
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Default Re: 1970 Copo ???s

We've been over this many times. The 70 Z COPO is a "Performance" COPO in every definition of the word COPO and accepted as such. The main difference between the 9796 (70 Z COPO) and what most normally think of as a COPO is the reason for its inception. Both COPO's were created for a specific racing reason, it's just that the 9561 (69 COPO) was designed for the drag racing crowd, mostly driven (as in created) by third party dealers who were very focused on the 1/4 mile. The 9796 in contrast, was driven (as in created) by GM for the Trans Am racing circuit. It was specifically designed to salvage the racing reputation of the 1970 Z28! It was a proven performance enhancement, and made for a great success story. That "Spoiler" affected Camaro production for the next 11 years!

However, if you are only a die hard drag racing fan, then yes, it's just a piece of fiberglass. Who cares?

Think of it like this, what is the difference between a Yenko 9561 and a "standard" 9561? Some stickers. That's it. Now, let's talk value. Why is a "standard" 9561 COPO (1969 427 Camaro) worth approximately $100,000.00 less than a "Yenko" 9561 COPO Camaro? Do the stickers make it any faster? No. It's history, reputation and marketing. Some guys like the “Standard” COPO’s more than the Yenko’s, some (most) like the Yenkos and the stripes. Then there are the other dealers, Berger, etc. Money wise the one 70 Z COPO (un restored, driver but # match)) that went up for sale only generated offers of $45,000.00. As far as I know, no other real proven 70 Z COPO’s have been on the market, and only a handful are accepted as real at this point (Phil’s 70 Z COPO being one).

In the end, if you talk to a Berger owner, he will most likely love the Bergers, and have the reasons why, looks like a sleeper etc. Talk to a Yenko owner, and he will also likely have the reasons why Yenko’s are “better”. Talk to a 70 Z COPO owner, and of course, he will have all of the reasons why the 70 is better. It’s all a matter of perspective once certain criteria are met (my own opinion below, other may add or have input):

1. Was it a Central Office Production Order car? Yes, go on. No, Stop.
2. Was it Performance related? Yes, go on. No, Stop.
3. Were there more than X made (1,2,5 ?), but limited? Yes, go on. No, Stop.
4. Others?

Finally, as far as performance goes, (Here we go Marlin) the 70 Yenko Deuce was the exact same engine as the 70 Z COPO (and the 70 Z for that matter). What makes the 70 Deuce a “Supercar”? The COPO for the LT1, limited production, and some stickers.

Same reasons why the 70 Z is a “Performance” COPO, performance, limited production and Racing History……………….. It really is a great read, and if you have not looked up the story behind it, it really is a success story and a good research topic. Of course, that’s just my opinion, for what that’s worth as I own one……

Last edited by rich pern; Oct 31st, 07 at 07:56 AM. Reason: spelling
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  #8  
Old Oct 30th, 07, 10:40 AM
JOE58 JOE58 is offline
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Default Re: 1970 Copo ???s

I think you made a typo. The Yenko 427 Camaros were 9561 9737 and one
of the things that collectors like about them is that vin lists have been found.
Same as with the ZL1 Camaros, the vin list is a big help to document the cars.
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  #9  
Old Oct 30th, 07, 01:03 PM
rich pern rich pern is offline
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Default Re: 1970 Copo ???s

Ooops, typing too fast. Fixed now.
Thanks!
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  #10  
Old Oct 30th, 07, 04:28 PM
Unreal Unreal is offline
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Default Re: 1970 Copo ???s

I'm with Z10Kl on this one.
While certainly a COPO, the spoiler is not in the same league as the 9560 or 9561. I remember the Yenko Reunion where the COPO9796 was displayed with the "Big Boys" while an LS6 convertible, after some begging, was allowed inside the convention center, but was relegated to a far corner.

If a COPO produced phone truck included heavy duty brakes, it would certainly be a performance enhancement......but it would still be a phone truck, albeit a COPO phone truck. I mean no disrespect to the 70 Camaro with the COPO spoiler, or any owners of them. I just don't see them in the same light as a 9560 or 9561.

I find it interesting that a Yenko COPO is worth significantly more than a straight COPO (even a double COPO) But that difference existed long before the Yenko VINs were released. (BTW they were not suddenly "found") I think it has more to do with the Yenko mistique.
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  #11  
Old Oct 30th, 07, 04:34 PM
rich pern rich pern is offline
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Default Re: 1970 Copo ???s

Cmon, a phone truck? My opinion was based on performace + racing history.

By that reasoning, where do you place the 70 deuce vs the Nova L89 that was just found? The duece was a COPO and the L89 was "just" an RPO, yet the L89 had all the racing goodies and the Deuce had just the standard 350 LT1 (which rocks by the way) as the Z28 and the Vette.
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  #12  
Old Oct 30th, 07, 09:55 PM
greg2001ls6454 greg2001ls6454 is offline
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Default Re: 1970 Copo ???s

I really think you are splitting the proverbial hairs trying to justify that a '70 Z with the 3 piece spoiler is somehow more than just that...a '70 Z with the taller 3 piece spoiler...Sure the spoiler was added on the line by the COPO ordering process...but to call it a "COPO" simply based on the additon of 1 relatively minor, non driveline part..that is stretching...There are many examples of non driveline items being added or removed...Does the many non factory colored cars deserve to be called "COPO's?" The "Carolina Blue" Z coming to mind...is that now a "COPO" Z and should be marketed as such? Did the taller spoiler actually help the car win more races..
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  #13  
Old Oct 31st, 07, 04:53 AM
JOE58 JOE58 is offline
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Default Re: 1970 Copo ???s

Yes it is “splitting hairs” and yes COPO options were used to build special fleet orders for police, fire, military, work trucks, etc.

So far, there does not seem to be a lot of interest in the many COPO options used for fleet and special orders except for the cars with documented racing or hi po street options.

Even cars with hi po service parts such as a Z/28 with cross ram or 67-68 cowl induction seem to have high collector appeal and therefore added value.

This is true not only for COPO options but also for RPO options and service parts that were used to meet the racing rule books.

FIA, SCCA, NASCAR, NHRA, and AHRA all had different rules and Chevy had to do some strange things to make the cars and parts legal to race.

It’s all in the racing Homologation Papers. SCCA General Competition Rules required all Production Car Specifications to be submitted and approved before they were legal to race. The Jim Hall 70 Camaro Trans Am team wanted a taller rear spoiler but it had to be a factory option. The Chevy underground racing operation created the 3-piece tall spoiler (COPO 9796) option and worked with the Hall race team to submit the Homologation Paper work to get approval for 1970 SCCA competition. In 1971 the tall spoiler was a RPO option.

Some of the racing rules were met with RPO options such as the ZL1 Corvette, L88 Corvette, 1963 Z06, 36 gal fuel tanks, etc.

The 1963 RPO Z11 Implala 427 W engine light weight car is a great race car that was built to meet NHRA 50 car minimum rule and was done with RPO options.

Some race cars were built using COPO options.
The base 1966 Corvair used for the Yenko Stinger race car used COPO options.

The 1968 SS396 TH400 L78 Nova is drag car built with a COPO option. In 1969 the SS396 TH400 L78 Nova is a RPO

The 1969 427 425hp Camaro is a COPO option
while the 1969 427 425hp Impala is a RPO

Chevy did some strange things to get race cars and hi po cars out the door and if you have a documented example, it has added collector value determined by the market.
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  #14  
Old Oct 31st, 07, 07:40 AM
rich pern rich pern is offline
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Default Re: 1970 Copo ???s

Quote:
Originally Posted by greg2001ls6454 View Post
I really think you are splitting the proverbial hairs trying to justify that a '70 Z with the 3 piece spoiler is somehow more than just that...a '70 Z with the taller 3 piece spoiler...Sure the spoiler was added on the line by the COPO ordering process...but to call it a "COPO" simply based on the additon of 1 relatively minor, non driveline part..that is stretching...There are many examples of non driveline items being added or removed...Does the many non factory colored cars deserve to be called "COPO's?" The "Carolina Blue" Z coming to mind...is that now a "COPO" Z and should be marketed as such? Did the taller spoiler actually help the car win more races..
Wow.
FWIW, the carolina blue Z was ordered via the non standard paint and has the -- on the trim tag denoting it as such, not the COPO process, so, no, it would not be a "COPO".

OK, so what about the point on the 70 Yenko Deuce, are you saying that the stickers, a non driveline part, made the any faster than the other cars with the LT1 standard that year?

Now, in my opinion the Yenko Deuce is a COPO, and yes, the Nova L78/L89 is not, even though the L78/L89 is a Big Block car and the Deuce is only a 350. My reasoning is that that the COPO was for performance, and via Yenko, had the racing history behind it.

Again, I am not saying that the 70 Z COPO was as "fast" as a 69 427 COPO, just that by all the definitions and logic it is as much a historical and performace COPO as a 69 427 COPO. It was just centered on Trans Am racing and not Drag Racing.

All of the 70 Z COPO's have the same distinguishing COPO designation on the build sheets, and all have the COPO 9796AA code circiled and hand written in pencil "COPO SPOILER" (I have seen three 70 Z COPO buildsheets), then initialed by the lineman.




I *think* this shows that the cars were pulled from the line for special treatment.

Finally, the reason that it is "just" a tall spoiler is that it was so successful that it was later included as standard equipment for the next 11 years! Without this process, the later camaros would have looked vastly different then they turned out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greg2001ls6454 View Post
Did the taller spoiler actually help the car win more races..
Glad you asked, YES! The tall spoiler did allow the 70 Z to win more races! In fact, it allowed the 70 Z to become a contender when in the initial trans am races prior to the COPO spoiler, the 70 Z performed poorly. During one of the races it is said that the camaro pit crew "borrowed" the center section from the pontiac guys and based on that performace, the plan came to being.

From what I have been told, some of the other teams (Ford?) decided that at the next race in Texas, they were going to complain and have the 70 Z disqualified because of the non standard equipment. Thus the 9796 COPO came into being. Chevy had these COPO cars placed at dealers in the area, and from what I have been told, even had some placed in the parking lot. When the complaint was filed, the chevy team said, sure, we made the required 500 cars (although I have heard that there were not 500 actually made) and the judges could see for themselves that they were in dealers and even in the parking lot!

Chevy was given the green light, and yes, won the race that day!
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  #15  
Old Oct 31st, 07, 05:05 PM
Unreal Unreal is offline
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Default Re: 1970 Copo ???s

Rich, my phone truck comment was meant to make the point that just because the COPO system was used to create the non-RPO vehicle did not necessarily put in the same league as the COPO9560/9561. I would not put the COPO phone truck with larger front brakes in the same league as the 70 Z with the COPO spoiler...although both were performance enhancements. Nor would I put the 70 Z in the same league as the 9560/9561.

As for the Deuce vs L89, I'm not sure I understand the question. One's a COPO, the other is an RPO. Nothing wrong with either one...both are pretty terrific cars. If you're asking which one I think would win in a 1320, my money would be on the RPO. I you are asking which I'd rather have, it'd be the RPO. If you are asking which is more valuable, the RPO would probably loose....but maybe not!

I remember a few years ago, the "Mayor of Fishkill" posted about a recently discovered COPO. He posted a pic of an old police car. I thought it was amusing, but he made a good point.

William made the point the other day that most COPOs were NOT Camaros and Chevelles and Novas; most were taxis and police cars and, yes, phone trucks. While true, the term is most often applied to the 69 iron block Camaro, Chevelle and Nova.

Was the ZL1 a COPO? Yes. Was the Deuce a COPO? Yes. Was the tall spoiler Z a COPO? Yes. Was the phone truck a COPO? Well.....technically, yes.
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