Low 10's Budget 400 Small Block Combo - Team Camaro Tech
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  #1  
Old Jan 22nd, 10, 10:11 PM
trmnatr trmnatr is offline
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Butch
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 222
Default Low 10's Budget 400 Small Block Combo

Guys this is Copy/Paste of mine from home (Team Chevelle), I thought being we have a Chevelle & Camaro we should post a little more about the Camaro here so you guys that dont visit Team Chevelle can see it

In this post I will post the old engine combination that went 10.41-10.45 consistently

The car's combo then was,,,
-1980 Camaro, 2800 pounds race weight
-powerglide w/5200rpm stall & ATI Trans brake
-12 bolt rear with 4.88's
-Mickey Thompson 32x14 L8 compound slicks
-true ladder bars

Here is some information on what it "WAS" with WELL OVER 500 runs on it (Junk engine really)
The old engine combo was......
- GM 4 bolt block bored, no other work, piston .026" in the hole
- GM Nodular 400 crank
- GM 350 rods
- KB OE type pistons for 5.7 rods (claimer i think) , 10.96:1 compression with our quench
- 5/64" 5/64" 3/16" rings
- GM 291 heads, No porting except bowls & 2.02/1.6 valves
- Crane solid cam 256/264 @.050" .545"/.563" 105 lobe seperation
- vic jr
- 850 BG modified by us

It would run 10.41-10.45 at about any given time, Here is a video of some runs in the heat (notice how the car bounces, this bounce is causing it to not hook up with the higher HP 400 you will read about in post 2)

This engine was so cheap (hence "Junk" engine because it was put together with junk laying around the shop)

10.434 pass in the heat
http://s510.photobucket.com/albums/s...t=MVI_0584.flv

Here is a video of the idle so you can hear what a similar cam would sound like if your looking for a good reliable bracket combo for 2010 or even Pro Street
http://s510.photobucket.com/albums/s...t=MVI_0582.flv

Idle after a run with the engine in the 180-185 range
http://s510.photobucket.com/albums/s...t=MVI_0585.flv
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  #2  
Old Jan 22nd, 10, 10:18 PM
trmnatr trmnatr is offline
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Butch
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 222
Default Re: Low 10's Budget 400 Small Block Combo

Now here is how the engine was in October, We were at a bracket event and the dragster next to us did the burnout to the 1/8 mile or close to it, we did ours after he made it out there to the 1/8 then started backing up so we did ours, he then did a second burnout and the engine was a $500 engine with over 500 runs, it ran hot and in the pits cracked a cylinder so we had to rebuild or replace the engine

We replaced it, here is some information on the new build and what it runs and you can see whats its capable of (9.90's) , these runs were in the middle to end of October

NOTE: Billk im talking about is a Moderator here and on Team Chevelle

The build,,,,
The new engine is (which will come out when the EQ head/Dr. J's 406 goes in and this engine below will be the back up engine).............
- GM 4 Bolt main block, line honed, decked, bored/honed, filled with Hardblok (Thanks to BillK)
- GM crank
- Scat 6" Pro Comp Rods (had to notch some cylinders and relieve the oil pan rail some)
- Keith Black Premium Forged 2618 pistons (nice and moderate to light weight)
- 1/16" 1/16" 3/16" rings (LOW TENSION)
- King Engine Bearings
- Rotating unit balanced by Billk
- Same 291 heads EXCEPT due to unexpected problems we had an extra wait on the block work, so we did some porting to the exhaust (very mild, BillK saw it), gasket matched (nothing down in runners) and more bowl work and valve job
- Same 1.46" Crane Cams Valve Springs (which i think are/were PAC) still pressure test with in single digits of what they are suppose to be so we used them again (they must have 300-400 runs)
- Crane Saturday Night Special 292/300 @.020" 256/264 @.050" .545"/.563" 105 lobe seperation angle, 102 intake centerline
- Victor Jr. Intake (we may run a few runs after break in time and try our professional products Victor Jr. "look alike" that did ET quicker than the Victor Jr. on the Chevelle
- 850 BG Modified by us (same as a 1000hp Holley)

As to the compression on the new engine, With our heads, head gaskets, deck and pistons we are 12.38:1 EXCEPT i have to figure out how much compression loss we have by top ring location (the higher the top ring the less compression loss), should be about 12.30:1 with our top ring location

Here are some specs, some i dont have with me on the block
- Main bearing clearance .003" / .003" / .003" / .003" / 003"
- Rod bearing clearance (If we had more "time" we would have ordered a set of .001" extra oil clearance and mixed matched bearings to get an extra .0005" but we "can live" with it here
Rod #1 .0021"
Rod #2 .0022"
Rod #3 .0022"
Rod #4 .0021"
Rod #5 .0021"
Rod #6 .0022"
Rod #7 .0020"
Rod #8 .0020"
- Rod side clearance (If we had more "time" again we would have set all the side clearances closer to .030")
Rods # 1&2 .026"
Rods # 3&4 .026"
Rods # 5&6 .020"
Rods # 7&8 .020"
- Crankshaft end play .0065"
- Piston to wall clearance .0075" (will have to look as i forgot that info sheet, its in the shop not my pocket like this one, off memory Bill & I talked about .0075" and thats what i recall them at but will have to look)
- Piston to valve clearance, we checked it with checking springs but had so much visable clearnace we didnt bother to measure
- Rod bolt torque to get proper stretch (.0046") after each rod torqued to suggest torque 6 times, most all of them had to go 65 foot pounds, one was 66 and one was 67

Now i have used many Crane cams timing sets which i cant anymore as they are not opened on that end (they actually did make billet gears there, very accurate gears) , when you degree a cam you have many factors against you such as....
- user error
- key way error in crank
- key way error in crank gear
- error in cam gear
- error in camshaft & more

The cam is a 105 lobe center with 3 degrees advanced ground in which should put the ICL @ 102 and this is where i wanted it, I have been saving a Crane Billet 9 Key Way timing set as we cant get the accurate ones from Crane anymore until they re-open, We degreed the cam and the ICL is clearly @ 102 degrees making it perfect

We did have to notch the cylinders and the oil pan rails for rod & rod bolt clearance, we have clearance .060" or larger now

Here is a link to the pistons we are running, EXCELLENT pistons for the money. They are nice and light
http://kb-silvolite.com/forged.php?a...tails&P_id=328

We would like to thank Billk for all the work in the block and balancing, I know Bill was happy to see this block leave his shop as the block was in love with Bill or had a curse on him because everything that "could" go wrong did go wrong, Thanks BillK

Here are the track runs, notice the issues off the line indicated by ET/MPH/60' times, Whats its doing is when it would bounce off the wrong rear springs with the old engine its driving it in too tire shake then spin with this engine, it however does recover and makes it down the track with a little driving

There was also ZERO track prep and it was a T&T day to top it off so IMO most of the issues was the track prep and the rest was the springs, it has 9.90's potential

Pass 1 off the trailer
60' 1.41
330' 4.178
660' 6.504 @105.68mph
1000' 8.521
1/4 10.247 @130.97mph
Notes: tire spin after leave 20' out

PAss 2, loosen the shocks and drop air pressure from pass 1 settings
60' 1.445 (shook the tires and got sideways with nose of car aiming 11-11:30)
330' 4.23
660' 6.572 @105.14mph
1000' 8.593
1/4 10.322 @130.58mph
Notes: shook a little on the gear change, believe it it hit the converter on shift and shook - shift @6,000rpm so we are raising the shift rpm to 6400rpm. We also were bouncing off the rev limiter @ 7200rpm on this pass

Pass 3, back to pass one settings with 1 extra click to stiff
60' 1.418
330' 4.19
660' 6.51 @106.06mph
1000' 8.515
1/4 10.228 @132.06mph
Notes: still have tire spin off the line but getting better, shifted @ 6400rpm and ran 6800rpm past the lights

Pass 4, no changes
60' 1.42
330' 4.174
660' 6.483 @106.56mph
1000' 8.482
1/4 10.190 @132.28mph
Notes: still had tire spin, for about 6-8'

We did get video of these but dont know how to get them loaded, Our old camera took a chip, this one has a tape and I cant get them uploaded

EDIT: Here are a few pics of this engine and the time slip from the first pass off the trailer

400 Engine Pic


Time slip for 1st pass off trailer


Pic of the car in the pits

Last edited by trmnatr; Jan 22nd, 10 at 10:38 PM.
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  #3  
Old Jan 22nd, 10, 10:34 PM
trmnatr trmnatr is offline
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Butch
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 222
Default Re: Low 10's Budget 400 Small Block Combo

Now I mentioned a Big 400 engine, The one thats in post #2 after it makes a dozen CLEAN RUNS will get replaced by our big 400 which should be 100hp or more over it, I may use a different cam as the cam was intended for MAX Performance, But i may shoot for longer life out of the big 400 engine

Specs on big 400 engine (should run some 9.50's, maybe more)
- 400 small block 2 bolt main, filled with Hardblok, bored & honed with plates, Milodon Splayed Caps & Bolts, line bored/honed, pressurized oiling hole in thrust face along with some more mods
- Ohio 4340 Steel Crank turned to correct journal sizing & stroke
- Scat I Beam Pro Comp 6" rods with 7/16" rod bolts
- Probe Sportsman Race Series Domed Pistons, 13.3:1
- 1/16" 1/16" 3/16" ring pack, low tension oil ring (Speed-Pro style)
- Coated Cam Bearings
- King Rod & Main bearings
- Dr. J's Performance ported EQ cylinder heads for this application 2.08/1.6 Ferrea Valves
- Probe Shaft Mount rocker arms
- Crane Solid Roller 308/316 @.020" 278/284 @.050" 200/202 @.200" .715"/.630" 106 lobe seperation (may change to same spec cam, but .759"/.675" lift)
- Crane Solid Roller lifters
- Dr. J's Performance Fully Ported Motown Intake
- Our BG Modified by us

Here are a few pics,,,

Probe "Sportsman Race Series" AKA "SRS" pistons underside view (plenty of material to have lightened some)


Top View of Probe "Sportsman Race Series" pistons


Crane Solid Roller 8620 Billet Solid Roller


Dr. J's Performance Fully Ported EQ Intake Runners


Dr. J's Performance Fully Ported EQ Exhaust Runners


Dr. J's Performance Fully Ported EQ Chambers


Dr. J's Performance Fully Ported World Products Motown Intake
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  #4  
Old Jan 23rd, 10, 06:52 AM
DOUG G DOUG G is offline
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Default Re: Low 10's Budget 400 Small Block Combo

Butch, great numbers from that 400
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  #5  
Old Jan 23rd, 10, 04:21 PM
trmnatr trmnatr is offline
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Butch
 
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Posts: 222
Default Re: Low 10's Budget 400 Small Block Combo

Quote:
Originally Posted by DOUG G View Post
Butch, great numbers from that 400
Thanks Doug
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  #6  
Old Jan 23rd, 10, 06:11 PM
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77wolf10.85 77wolf10.85 is offline
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Tim
 
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Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 3,222
Default Re: Low 10's Budget 400 Small Block Combo

Butch, is your Camaro the one you have that weighs 2600# ,,,,,or is that your other car? If so how'd you get it so light? Mine is a fatboy like me. Even with a fiberglass hood and nose it is 3350# with me inside(250). My buddies tell me to gut the doors and yank all the wires and run just what I need. I see 100# in all that, and there's yours 700# lighter. wtf?
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  #7  
Old Jan 23rd, 10, 06:48 PM
RichSchmidt RichSchmidt is offline
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Rich
 
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Posts: 1,460
Default Re: Low 10's Budget 400 Small Block Combo

My 73 firbird was as light as 2900# with my 200# butt in it.I had a bolt together fiberglass front clip fiberglass doors,lexan windows{except rear} iron head smallblock,powerglide,aluminum wheels,one racing seat and a rug.It ran 10.80's with a basic 355 Here was the combo
350 2 bolt block .030 over with plates,zero decked and main studs.
Steel GM 350 crank with oil hole chamfered and balanced
Stock GM rods,shot peened real hard,fitted with ARP bolts and resized.
TRW 2304 pistons{LT1 piston} flycut.100" true 10.25:1
7 quart hamburger pan stock pump stock timing set
Custon Erson roller cam.262/275 at .050,.640/640 lift,102 intake center 106 lobe sep.
Matching valvetrian package.
Dart sportsman 2 heads bowl blended and ported to 1206 gasket
2.05/1.50" valves.
Ported to match olley strip dominator,and 1 inch carb spacer
Wel tuned 50 double pumper.
1 7/8 tube super comps.
MS 6al with locked out stock distributor
trans brake powerglide and 5000 stall convertor
12 bolt with 5.13's,
12x9 goodyear slicks.

I have a website with many of the configratons I have had in my car over the years,Ijust have to find out where I put the link to it and I wil post it.
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  #8  
Old Jan 23rd, 10, 09:06 PM
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.gearhead. .gearhead. is offline
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Jim
 
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Default Re: Low 10's Budget 400 Small Block Combo

Those are respectable numbers for that combo. The light weight is helpful.

Here's a combo I had a couple years ago. It went 10 teens at 3320 lbs all day in a drive around street car with 3.73 gears.

GM 400 4 bolt block, .040 over, 509 casting, decked, honed
Eagle 4340 3.75" forged, lightened crankshaft
JE 13.5:1 8cc pistons
Eagle 6" H beam rods
ARP's w/ 2000's
Comp pushrods
Custom grind cam, .690 lift, 4-7 & 3-2 firing order swap
Holley 950 HP carb
Edelbrock Victor Jr intake
Brodix Track 1 64 cc heads, ported, 5 angled valves

The short block has 190 miles, 16 passes, and is for sale right now for $2500.

Jim
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  #9  
Old Jan 24th, 10, 12:06 PM
trmnatr trmnatr is offline
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Butch
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 222
Default Re: Low 10's Budget 400 Small Block Combo

Quote:
Originally Posted by 77wolf10.85 View Post
Butch, is your Camaro the one you have that weighs 2600# ,,,,,or is that your other car? If so how'd you get it so light? Mine is a fatboy like me. Even with a fiberglass hood and nose it is 3350# with me inside(250). My buddies tell me to gut the doors and yank all the wires and run just what I need. I see 100# in all that, and there's yours 700# lighter. wtf?
Was 2800 race weight, with steel floors now and some other safety stuff after the drive shaft exploded at 120mph+ we added a second loop and some more stuff, now weighs 2850 race weight

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichSchmidt View Post
My 73 firbird was as light as 2900# with my 200# butt in it.I had a bolt together fiberglass front clip fiberglass doors,lexan windows{except rear} iron head smallblock,powerglide,aluminum wheels,one racing seat and a rug.It ran 10.80's with a basic 355 Here was the combo
350 2 bolt block .030 over with plates,zero decked and main studs.
Steel GM 350 crank with oil hole chamfered and balanced
Stock GM rods,shot peened real hard,fitted with ARP bolts and resized.
TRW 2304 pistons{LT1 piston} flycut.100" true 10.25:1
7 quart hamburger pan stock pump stock timing set
Custon Erson roller cam.262/275 at .050,.640/640 lift,102 intake center 106 lobe sep.
Matching valvetrian package.
Dart sportsman 2 heads bowl blended and ported to 1206 gasket
2.05/1.50" valves.
Ported to match olley strip dominator,and 1 inch carb spacer
Wel tuned 50 double pumper.
1 7/8 tube super comps.
MS 6al with locked out stock distributor
trans brake powerglide and 5000 stall convertor
12 bolt with 5.13's,
12x9 goodyear slicks.

I have a website with many of the configratons I have had in my car over the years,Ijust have to find out where I put the link to it and I wil post it.
Runs good

Quote:
Originally Posted by .gearhead. View Post
Those are respectable numbers for that combo. The light weight is helpful.

Here's a combo I had a couple years ago. It went 10 teens at 3320 lbs all day in a drive around street car with 3.73 gears.

GM 400 4 bolt block, .040 over, 509 casting, decked, honed
Eagle 4340 3.75" forged, lightened crankshaft
JE 13.5:1 8cc pistons
Eagle 6" H beam rods
ARP's w/ 2000's
Comp pushrods
Custom grind cam, .690 lift, 4-7 & 3-2 firing order swap
Holley 950 HP carb
Edelbrock Victor Jr intake
Brodix Track 1 64 cc heads, ported, 5 angled valves

The short block has 190 miles, 16 passes, and is for sale right now for $2500.

Jim
Runs good
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  #10  
Old Jan 24th, 10, 12:07 PM
trmnatr trmnatr is offline
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Butch
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 222
Default Re: Low 10's Budget 400 Small Block Combo

Quote:
Originally Posted by 77wolf10.85 View Post
Butch, is your Camaro the one you have that weighs 2600# ,,,,,or is that your other car? If so how'd you get it so light? Mine is a fatboy like me. Even with a fiberglass hood and nose it is 3350# with me inside(250). My buddies tell me to gut the doors and yank all the wires and run just what I need. I see 100# in all that, and there's yours 700# lighter. wtf?
Glass doors and trunk

Camaro doors were HEAVY

We have a powerglide trans (lighter) too
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  #11  
Old Jan 31st, 10, 12:39 PM
trmnatr trmnatr is offline
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Butch
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 222
Default Re: Low 10's Budget 400 Small Block Combo

Quote:
Originally Posted by DOUG G View Post
Butch, great numbers from that 400
You coming down Capitol this year?
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