700R4 no 3rd/4th gear - Team Camaro Tech
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  #1  
Old Jul 7th, 10, 09:26 PM
zlek131 zlek131 is offline
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Default 700R4 no 3rd/4th gear

Installed a stage-3 (rated upto 650hp) 700R4 behind a 655HP/672TQ motor. Took it for a test drive and manually shifted the gears without any issues. TV controlled shifts appeared to be fine under normal driving. Everything seemed fine. Couple days later and 5 miles on the new setup I got on it bit while in second, nothing crazy. It wound up pretty good in second and then attempted to shift into 3rd and that's when I saw my RPMs go through the roof with major slippage. I now have no 3rd or 4th gear but only slippage. 1st, 2nd and reverse appear to be fine. I tried several TV cable adjustments and no help. Fluid level is good. While I had the tranny out I replaced the governor on the tranny as I had a stacked 3rd/4th gear issue behind my old motor. I had the tranny dynoed and the issue got resolved. Only other thing I can think of that's new is that I am now running radiator's built in tranny cooler vs before I had an external cooler. Tranny's bottom line (out line) to cooler's bottom fitting while tranny's top line (in line) to cooler's top fitting. I have a t-block with a temp sensor on the out line right before the cooler fitting. Could I be missing something? Did I forget something?

Pretty bummed as I've spent 6 months on this build and it's not looking good...
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  #2  
Old Jul 7th, 10, 09:49 PM
zlek131 zlek131 is offline
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Default Re: 700R4 no 3rd/4th gear

A little self diagnosis that I found on the net...The symptoms are identical to mine, NOT GOOD!


Reverse works good. Starts out in first good, shifts normally into second, then right before shifting into third, RPMs go soaring. The vehicle is slipping badly. As the vehicle slows down, it goes back into second. Using those symptoms, lets rule out what can't be bad.

Reverse works good. Look and see what is applied in reverse. We now know that the reverse input clutch, and the lo-reverse clutch is OK, since we have reverse. Cross them out.

Starts out in first good. Go back to the chart. We can see that the forward clutch must be good, the forward sprag must be OK, and the lo-roller clutch should be OK. Cross them out.

Shifts into second normally. Go to the chart. We already know from first gear, that the forward clutch and forward sprag are OK, but now we have the 2-4 band being applied. But since we have second also, then the band is OK.

Now take a look at the difference between second and third. Remember, we lost third gear. Notice the 2-4 band disengages, but the 3-4 clutch applies. By using this chart, we can pinpoint that the 3-4 clutches are slipping. Either they are burnt, or the apply piston has a blown seal, or whatever. So by using this chart, we can also assume that we don't have fourth either.
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  #3  
Old Jul 7th, 10, 11:46 PM
BPOS BPOS is offline
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Default Re: 700R4 no 3rd/4th gear

Sounds like you've got about 5 HP too many. You need to ask yourself if you want to try and make a 700R4 live behind that much power. I'd think real hard about a 4L80E if I were you. I know, they're expensive, but so will a rebuild on your 700. Plus, with the 4l80 you could use a paddle shifter. How cool would that be?
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  #4  
Old Jul 8th, 10, 05:39 AM
vortecpro vortecpro is offline
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Default Re: 700R4 no 3rd/4th gear

Quote:
Originally Posted by BPOS View Post
Sounds like you've got about 5 HP too many. You need to ask yourself if you want to try and make a 700R4 live behind that much power. I'd think real hard about a 4L80E if I were you. I know, they're expensive, but so will a rebuild on your 700. Plus, with the 4l80 you could use a paddle shifter. How cool would that be?
If I were to use another automatic, this is how I would do it. First it would be a strait cut turbo 400 with a real pro built 10 inch converter, then it would be followed up with a 3.08 gear in the rear end, I know this doesnt look sexy to the street rodders out there but this is what gets it done. One has to look no further than Shouldntbetheres fully loaded air cond, 3730 pound 3.08 geared 10 second vette sporting the hyd roller 496, that how I would do it. Right RS SS 502?
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Old Jul 8th, 10, 05:59 AM
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Default Re: 700R4 no 3rd/4th gear

I had a 700R4 go out behind my 454 and the symptoms were similar. I had another one rebuilt and so far so good. When my 496 is complete, I'm looking at a 4L80 as well. Just too much power for the 700R4.
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  #6  
Old Jul 8th, 10, 06:26 AM
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Default Re: 700R4 no 3rd/4th gear

Matt - sorry to hear it went that quickly. Something wasn't right.

I went through several 700r4's in my 10 sec 3rd gen with a blown small block.

Started with all Art Carr stuff and ended up with a Rossler tranny. It lasted - for a while. I'm convinced a 700r4 long term is not the answer behind that kind of torque.

http://www.rosslertrans.com/index.htm
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  #7  
Old Jul 8th, 10, 09:10 AM
zlek131 zlek131 is offline
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Default Re: 700R4 no 3rd/4th gear

Thanks guys for all the feedback. As I've been told many times on here, "walk away from it all and came back in a few days..." which is exactly what I am going to do. My mind is flooded with disappointment at the moment and certainly not ready for any rational decision making process.
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Old Jul 8th, 10, 05:22 PM
zlek131 zlek131 is offline
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Default Re: 700R4 no 3rd/4th gear

Well...it never fails and always comes true, at least with me. When things get really, really bad for me (as they have in the last couple days) something good always happens and it did this time too. First, thank you David (denvervet) as you may have saved the day again. You hooked me up with local shop in town as the owner is one of your clients. I spoke with Keith and the man has been doing transmissions for 25 years. He knows Monster Transmission, has repaired some of their transmissions and actually got paid by Monster. He says they actually make a "decent" transmission. They do some things that he personally would not do or do much differently but at the same time he has seen a lot of other tranny shops do a whole lot worse. I am going to get my transmission to Keith and he will tear it down right in front of me for FREE! We will go through it, identify what's broke, what's about to break and what's done right. After that we will put together a plan as to what's needed in order for this transmission to handle Mark Jones' motor. If I chose not to pursue it, he will only charge me to put the tranny back together so it can be returned to me in one piece. I would say that's more than fair. He told me that he has build these things to handle well over 700hp over and over again. The speculation is that I never had the pain in the butt TV cable setup correctly on my old motor. I have to say that 2nd to 3rd shift at times did not feel right over the last year and a half. At times I would feel like there was a slip, I would then readjust the cable, drive for a while, floor it a week later and the cable would be out of adjustment again. TV cable setup incorrectly will result in toasted 3/4 clutches 9 out of 10 times. So the clutches were more than likely getting slowly burned up over the last year and half. Mark's 496 torque bong came along, one hit later the clutches were ashes. We are going to fix this, get the TV cable dialed in correctly (may require a custom bracket) and call it a day. Good news is I will actually get to learn a little about the internals of a 700R4!

David, thanks again. I got plans this Saturday but if you need help getting that motor in on Sunday, you know my number!
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Last edited by zlek131; Jul 8th, 10 at 09:46 PM.
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  #9  
Old Jul 8th, 10, 05:54 PM
fatblock fatblock is offline
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Default Re: 700R4 no 3rd/4th gear

Matt..sounds like you have found your go to guy re: your 700r4..
I have dual side mounted carbs...talk about a bear setting up the tv cable for the correct geometry.
I gave up and grabbed tci,s constant pressure valve body.The tv cable now just determines shift points ..not line pressure.
This is just a bandaid fix for now,curious as to what mods your builder will do to make a 700r4 live behind a torque monster 496.
My blown big block makes north of 700hp/700ft lbs with MT drag radials and the tci 700r4 is still hangin in there.Most likely do to my stock rear suspension that never hooks.The 2-3 shift at wot still flares a tad with the cpvb..but less than before with auto/manual vb.The fluid is red and no odor.Talk about living on borrowed time here.
Keep us posted..and pick the builders brain.This is an interesting thread for anyone considering the 700r4 behind a high torque bbc.
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Old Jul 8th, 10, 06:53 PM
zlek131 zlek131 is offline
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Default Re: 700R4 no 3rd/4th gear

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatblock View Post
...The 2-3 shift at wot still flares a tad with the cpvb..but less than before with auto/manual vb...
Keep us posted..and pick the builders brain.This is an interesting thread for anyone considering the 700r4 behind a high torque bbc.
Flare up is a perfect way to describe it....yes, I will keep everyone posted on all the findings and mods.
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Old Jul 8th, 10, 07:04 PM
jakeshoe jakeshoe is offline
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Default Re: 700R4 no 3rd/4th gear

Quote:
Originally Posted by vortecpro View Post
If I were to use another automatic, this is how I would do it. First it would be a strait cut turbo 400 with a real pro built 10 inch converter, then it would be followed up with a 3.08 gear in the rear end, I know this doesnt look sexy to the street rodders out there but this is what gets it done. One has to look no further than Shouldntbetheres fully loaded air cond, 3730 pound 3.08 geared 10 second vette sporting the hyd roller 496, that how I would do it. Right RS SS 502?


Why waste money on a weaker gearset?

If I was going that route I would use a 2.75 helical gearset in the TH400 for a wider ratio.

A 4L80E has gotten affordable enough these days that it's a very viable solution for the ultimate in strength without compromising. You can still run the 3.73s or 4.10s and then get on the highway and run less than 2500 rpm at 70 mph.

Another advantage to the 4L80E is fully automatic function with a programmable electronic controller, so ALL shift points can be calibrated to the driver's preference. You can also have a transbrake with auto function, you cannot do that with a TH400.

The 700-R4 is simply not a reliable unit at elevated power levels. It works OK to ~450-500 HP with a good builder and perfect setup. Anything more than that, it is on borrowed time.
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Old Jul 9th, 10, 05:50 AM
vortecpro vortecpro is offline
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Default Re: 700R4 no 3rd/4th gear

Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeshoe View Post
Why waste money on a weaker gearset?

If I was going that route I would use a 2.75 helical gearset in the TH400 for a wider ratio.

A 4L80E has gotten affordable enough these days that it's a very viable solution for the ultimate in strength without compromising. You can still run the 3.73s or 4.10s and then get on the highway and run less than 2500 rpm at 70 mph.

Another advantage to the 4L80E is fully automatic function with a programmable electronic controller, so ALL shift points can be calibrated to the driver's preference. You can also have a transbrake with auto function, you cannot do that with a TH400.

The 700-R4 is simply not a reliable unit at elevated power levels. It works OK to ~450-500 HP with a good builder and perfect setup. Anything more than that, it is on borrowed time.
Jake, I do not want that low first gear, it does not make the converter work as hard (multiply torque). My second problem is with the weight of the converter with the 4L80E, I dont want to carry the weight, I feel like driving around with an overdrive trans is like driving around with the parking brake on. And I do have back to back examples to prove my point. I would like your honest opinion, do you really think its a bad idea to put a turbo 400 in there with a 3.08 gear? Jake, please dont take this wrong, I think your serious about your work, allways trying to come up with new ideas, and I would have no problem reccommending you to person looking for an honest and good trans rebuilder. Keep up the good work.
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  #13  
Old Jul 9th, 10, 07:22 AM
jakeshoe jakeshoe is offline
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Default Re: 700R4 no 3rd/4th gear

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Originally Posted by vortecpro View Post
Jake, I do not want that low first gear, it does not make the converter work as hard (multiply torque). My second problem is with the weight of the converter with the 4L80E, I dont want to carry the weight, I feel like driving around with an overdrive trans is like driving around with the parking brake on. And I do have back to back examples to prove my point. I would like your honest opinion, do you really think its a bad idea to put a turbo 400 in there with a 3.08 gear? Jake, please dont take this wrong, I think your serious about your work, allways trying to come up with new ideas, and I would have no problem reccommending you to person looking for an honest and good trans rebuilder. Keep up the good work.
We can put an 8" converter on a 4L80, we commonly use the 9.5" with them, same core as used with a TH400. Using the stock 4L80E converter would be a waste of time and nobody does it on a retrofit unless they are on a severe budget.

A converter will multiply torque no matter what the gear is, the gearing I would choose would depend entirely on the combo.
MOST combos don't pick up a bunch with the 2.75 ratio when used with a 3.55-4.10 rear but the heavier cars or milder ratios usually do pick up enough to be worth the cost.

We have one combo that went from a TH400 9.5" converter to a 4L80E, same brand 9/5" converter but setup with lockup clutch and actually picked up a couple of hundredths on 60' so feeling like the parking brake is on definitely wasn't the case.

TH400 with a 3.08 gear would work good in some combos, a 496 or larger cube BBC in a average or lightweight musclecar. It works very well in a turbo car.

However you will be giving up some possible ET in most combos and in any case you are giving up OD, you can run the OD with a 3.08 as well. In a performance car, a 3.42 is about as mild of a gear as I like to run, and even a 3.42 can get old without OD.

One of the biggest factors with OD for the last couple of decades is getting one to live.
The 4L80E is a direct descendent of the TH400. Many interchangeable parts, etc. There is a reason I don't sell 700-R4s/4L60Es, I don't BS the customer, and the results of the builders who do show up in posts like this one.
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  #14  
Old Jul 9th, 10, 08:17 AM
zlek131 zlek131 is offline
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Default Re: 700R4 no 3rd/4th gear

Jake, really good info regarding the 4l80E on your website. Wish we had this conversation about a year and half ago before I went the 700R4 route. Still pricey sucker though especially when you add the controller and some options. Based on the numbers I am seeing it's darn close to what it would cost me for a manual 5 speed conversion. Of course the fact of being one 700R4 already into the deal doesn't help either.
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Old Jul 10th, 10, 10:25 PM
zlek131 zlek131 is offline
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Default Re: 700R4 no 3rd/4th gear

Anyone ever see/try one of these?
http://www.gearvendors.com/articles/...l06/index.html
Edit:
Just searched, popular topic...
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