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  #16  
Old Oct 29th, 10, 07:12 PM
JBS71383 JBS71383 is offline
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Jeff
 
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Default Re: Profilers 195 vs. Afr 195

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg O View Post
I agree that we don't race flow benches. The question is then how in the world do we make a decision as to what to buy? While not perfect, flow numbers are all we have really unless you can buy 2 sets of heads, try them out on a dyno and send back the set that makes less power. Who can afford that?
I agree, I posed the same question about 6 months ago when I was going through the same dilemma... That why I put Chad's number up there. Chad is a professional head porter, he has seen and worked on pretty much ALL the cylinder heads out there that people like us are looking at buying and he knows alot more about port design, flow, velocity etc than most of us ever will,and how that relates to engine performance... CHad is a stand up guy and is willing to talk to the average joe to explain this stuff
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  #17  
Old Oct 30th, 10, 07:08 AM
z28kid z28kid is offline
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Default Re: Profilers 195 vs. Afr 195


I used the 195 profilers
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  #18  
Old Oct 30th, 10, 08:44 AM
camaroman7d camaroman7d is offline
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Default Re: Profilers 195 vs. Afr 195

I try to stay away from head and cam threads, but I will say a couple things here. If you have the combination to support a larger head (210cc) I would also lean that way. You didn't list the rest of your combo, so it's hard to say what would be best. As far as AFR vs Profiler I have heard nothing but great things about the Profiler heads. The engine combination that was posted made 130HP more than your goal, how can you go wrong there?

One last thing people really need to stop putting so much faith in flow numbers, they really don't mean much if anything. They are good at showing a trend when making changes. More flow on the bench does not automatically mean more HP.
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  #19  
Old Oct 30th, 10, 12:17 PM
Radcannon Radcannon is offline
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Default Re: Profilers 195 vs. Afr 195

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBS71383 View Post
X2...

..flow numbers arent all they are cracked up to be..theres more important aspects to heads than flow numbers... more like VELOCITY!!!
Which is exactly why I would pick AFR's. I found a book at barnes and noble once showing the velocity and flow numbers on most SBC heads. AFR's by far FAR had the best velocities even down low at good flow. The 210's which I have on my 383 had better velocity than most competitors smaller heads which is absolutely nuts.

Flow numbers are important for a back to back basis and in combination with the other characteristics. If you look at them along with port velocity and tumble/swirl it will tell you exactly how your engine will react. Flow numbers of one head can make less power than another head with lower flow numbers if you have no port velocity and no mixture motion which is why you go with cnc'd heads on the intake side because you need mixture motion for combustion. Flow benches are standardized on 7kpa delta from atmosphere to suction on port. They are very valid principles and all have their purpose.

Personally, you get what you pay for so spend your money where its worth it on the right heads. I love my 210's except for the fact I have to drop 1500 on custom headers and exhaust because nothing fits it. 195's dont have this problem. I look at it this way, what head company fully 5 axis cnc ports their base heads.... AFR. Now if they have the time to do this and flow benches I can assure you that they have it right. With a CNC machine you can do many many many things to your head during research to figure it out compared to drawing something up and having a prototype built and a few iterations, much more expensive (which means they didn't do it, probably just did one iteration or reverse engineering of a head).

Great customer service too.
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  #20  
Old Oct 30th, 10, 02:12 PM
Jeremiah Jeremiah is offline
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Default Re: Profilers 195 vs. Afr 195

The Pro-filers are a great head for the money, I considered them strongly before I bought my AFR 195 Eliminators.
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  #21  
Old Oct 30th, 10, 03:09 PM
67RS502 67RS502 is offline
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Default Re: Profilers 195 vs. Afr 195

Stick a velocity probe in an afr head and see what happens, velocites will be all over the place, and sky high at the P-rod pinch.
Then stick one in a Profiler, and you'll see uniform velocites with a good average velocity thats not too high unlike most heads out there in which the air speed is way too high.
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  #22  
Old Oct 30th, 10, 03:35 PM
Radcannon Radcannon is offline
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Default Re: Profilers 195 vs. Afr 195

Quote:
Originally Posted by 67RS502 View Post
Stick a velocity probe in an afr head and see what happens, velocites will be all over the place, and sky high at the P-rod pinch.
Then stick one in a Profiler, and you'll see uniform velocites with a good average velocity thats not too high unlike most heads out there in which the air speed is way too high.
Not sure 1) how you can say that because you do not have velocities all over the place because of common fluid mechanic principles, unless you are creating vorticies by overlying lips and sharp edges/bottle necks. You will have no slip wall conditions known as a boundary layer and from there velocity will increase as an exponential function until free stream velocity which will be seen near the middle at x distance from the wall. Turbulence indicates pressure will vary as a function of time but this is what causes great mixture motion and the ability for a large spark increase.

2) not sure how you can state that if I stuck a velocity probe in there I would see this. A velocity probe is not ideal for this application because it requires one of a few things (pin wheel, fluorescent dye...). The way you would measure this is with a pitot tube measuring dynamic and total pressure across a streamline which in a good head application will be almost impossible because of turbulence associated with mixture motion making stagnation pressure and dynamic pressure readings across a streamline not plausible. If you did this I would like to know because I would like to see the data it, although it would be skewed. To really do this experimentally would cost over 50k.

3) how you can claim air speed is too high. Velocity is a good indication of an excellent head design for numerous reasons. One it shows that the head can decrease static pressure to the point where all energy flow is into the dynamic pressure which will decrease losses relative to the suction applied and two it is indicative of great mixture motion. If you have great flow and no velocity as in large runner designs you might be able to fill the cylinder but good luck at getting Maximum Best Torque timing out of the motor. On a two valve design high velocities cause a swirl motion to occur in the cylinder due to the staggered valves which decreases localized hot spots, increases fuel mixing and increases flame front propagation across the cylinder during combustion events (meaning peak pressures will coincide closer to best leverage on the crank). All of which will lead to more power. Of course if you have velocities approaching 240 mph under normal close to STP conditions choking will occur which will cause temperature rise and flow losses but then again comparing a similar runner size of AFR heads to others its obvious flows are not being restricted. This clearly shows you have no coking at the pushrod pinch because if you did the flows would be lower than similar sized heads with same valve sizing.

The only thing all this says is AFR obviously has top notch engineers familiar with compressible flow and fluid mechanics principles which speaks for itself about the quality of their products. Just don't go knocking on some company because you aren't a fan.
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  #23  
Old Oct 30th, 10, 06:53 PM
JBS71383 JBS71383 is offline
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Jeff
 
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Default Re: Profilers 195 vs. Afr 195

Heres another interesting thread about a guy who had AFRs fully ported and went to CNC pro-filers called "AirWolfs" and well... the results speak for themselves...
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  #24  
Old Oct 30th, 10, 07:34 PM
Greg O Greg O is offline
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Default Re: Profilers 195 vs. Afr 195

We don't race velocity probes either. (couldn't resist)

Anyway...I am sure of one thing, they BOTH are great cylinder heads or otherwise there would not be such passionate opinions on both sides. AFRs make great power. How do I know? Because I have owned a couple of sets, have first hand experience with firends that have run them and all have performed great. Pushrod pinch this, velocity that....doesn't matter to me because they have made great power on anything I have put them on.

I feel sure ProFiler is a great head as well. I hear great things about them on the internet but I just have not had any first hand experience with them.

If anyone would like to buy me a set of ProFilers to try out I am certainly willing to be a test bed for them.

Now lets all sing Kumba Ya.
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  #25  
Old Oct 30th, 10, 08:00 PM
Jeremiah Jeremiah is offline
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Default Re: Profilers 195 vs. Afr 195

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBS71383 View Post
Heres another interesting thread about a guy who had AFRs fully ported and went to CNC pro-filers called "AirWolfs" and well... the results speak for themselves...
I dont see a link, thread, or and results?
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  #26  
Old Oct 30th, 10, 08:32 PM
67RS502 67RS502 is offline
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Default Re: Profilers 195 vs. Afr 195

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radcannon View Post
Not sure 1) how you can say that because you do not have velocities all over the place because of common fluid mechanic principles, unless you are creating vorticies by overlying lips and sharp edges/bottle necks. You will have no slip wall conditions known as a boundary layer and from there velocity will increase as an exponential function until free stream velocity which will be seen near the middle at x distance from the wall. Turbulence indicates pressure will vary as a function of time but this is what causes great mixture motion and the ability for a large spark increase.

2) not sure how you can state that if I stuck a velocity probe in there I would see this. A velocity probe is not ideal for this application because it requires one of a few things (pin wheel, fluorescent dye...). The way you would measure this is with a pitot tube measuring dynamic and total pressure across a streamline which in a good head application will be almost impossible because of turbulence associated with mixture motion making stagnation pressure and dynamic pressure readings across a streamline not plausible. If you did this I would like to know because I would like to see the data it, although it would be skewed. To really do this experimentally would cost over 50k.

3) how you can claim air speed is too high. Velocity is a good indication of an excellent head design for numerous reasons. One it shows that the head can decrease static pressure to the point where all energy flow is into the dynamic pressure which will decrease losses relative to the suction applied and two it is indicative of great mixture motion. If you have great flow and no velocity as in large runner designs you might be able to fill the cylinder but good luck at getting Maximum Best Torque timing out of the motor. On a two valve design high velocities cause a swirl motion to occur in the cylinder due to the staggered valves which decreases localized hot spots, increases fuel mixing and increases flame front propagation across the cylinder during combustion events (meaning peak pressures will coincide closer to best leverage on the crank). All of which will lead to more power. Of course if you have velocities approaching 240 mph under normal close to STP conditions choking will occur which will cause temperature rise and flow losses but then again comparing a similar runner size of AFR heads to others its obvious flows are not being restricted. This clearly shows you have no coking at the pushrod pinch because if you did the flows would be lower than similar sized heads with same valve sizing.

The only thing all this says is AFR obviously has top notch engineers familiar with compressible flow and fluid mechanics principles which speaks for itself about the quality of their products. Just don't go knocking on some company because you aren't a fan.
If you have a flux capacitor you can go back in time, but whats that got to do with anything?

Yea, velocity probe - meaning pitot tube, most aint gonna know what that is.
So youre saying that a speed of 380fps (or higher) at the pinch is ok.
And a csa of 1.9" sq. is ok and wont make a 383 go into choke early.
Flow isnt going to be lower (by much) if the p-rod pinch is too small, the air speed at the pinch is going to be much higher.
Next your gonna tell me that a 2" csa is ok for a 383 turning 6000rpm, right?
what should the csa be?
what should the air speed be?
I'm not saying the Profilers are the best head (or that TFS are because I own a set), I'm just stating what a well designed head (port) should have. Just beause a head flows well, is small cc, has high velocity, and is shiny, dont make it right, I dont care whos name is on it.
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420 - 641hp HRcam 1.39, 9.79 @ 137.5
502 - 626hp 252/263HRcam 1.44, 10.08 @ 132.7
62 Nova
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1.57 10.97 @ 121.2


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  #27  
Old Oct 30th, 10, 09:03 PM
Jeremiah Jeremiah is offline
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Default Re: Profilers 195 vs. Afr 195

You dont gain the reputation AFR has by marketing inferior products.

When I bought my AFR's "a couple weeks back" the price was approx $250 more than the advertised price of the Pro-filers. They came with better springs, fully CNC'd, lighter 8mm valves, a lifetime warranty and countless articles, dyno thrashing and customer testimonials to back them. The tech support and warranty alone is worth that IMO.
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  #28  
Old Oct 31st, 10, 07:15 AM
JBS71383 JBS71383 is offline
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Jeff
 
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Default Re: Profilers 195 vs. Afr 195

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremiah View Post
I dont see a link, thread, or and results?
Sorry...http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311740

Heres another thread I posted whenI was looking for heads, since I had the same questions ... http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=322493
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  #29  
Old Oct 31st, 10, 07:38 AM
JBS71383 JBS71383 is offline
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Jeff
 
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Default Re: Profilers 195 vs. Afr 195

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremiah View Post
You dont gain the reputation AFR has by marketing inferior products.

When I bought my AFR's "a couple weeks back" the price was approx $250 more than the advertised price of the Pro-filers. They came with better springs, fully CNC'd, lighter 8mm valves, a lifetime warranty and countless articles, dyno thrashing and customer testimonials to back them. The tech support and warranty alone is worth that IMO.
We arent trying to say AFR is an inferior product, they are a very good product, but like with EVERYTHING there are other companies that produce just as good, if not better products for less or the same money. Why does AFR have such a strong following???? I can answer that in one word....MARKETING...THey throw alot of money towards marketing and flow numbers, and magazine articles...Just because a magazine uses AFR heads on most of their builds, doesnt make them the cylinder head that makes the most power, or goes down the track fastest. Pro-filer is just a small company without alot of marketing.. Darin Morgan designed these heads and his resume speaks for himself.. There are alot of head options if you choose to dig deep into it...AFR, Brodix, Dart, TFS, All-Pro.. All of the companies make fantastic heads.... Most guys at my local track dont run AFR stuff, they run Brodix stuff and are quite fast...

One last thing about Pro-Filers... If you ever want to upgrade, go bigger..etc... you can do it easily with the pro-filer, there is so much room to grow if later on you want to go bigger...You can go as high as 250cc with the same casting.... You cant do that with an AFR
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  #30  
Old Oct 31st, 10, 10:33 AM
Jeremiah Jeremiah is offline
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Default Re: Profilers 195 vs. Afr 195

AFR's reputation wasnt gained over night though, and the big money thrown at marketing didnt appear from no where.
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