[penquin]

Before I start, I just want to mention that I did a search and tried all options that others have posted and or replys.

Here is my problem:

I have a 67 Camaro with manual drums all around. I purchased a standard manual Disc brake conversion kit from SSBC and installed it per instructions with no problems; Except, for the fact that I can not get a hard pedal.

Everything is NEW, calipers, all brake hoses, all brake lines, adj. pro. valve, master cylinder, wheel cylinders, all four speed bleeder, everything but the distribution block.

There is NO leaks at calipers, brake hose, distribution block, master cylinder, adj. proportioning valve, MC inside at pedal, union that joins 2 peice brake line, rear brake hose, union at rear brake line, speed bleeders, or wheel cyclinders.

This is what I have done: The master cylinder has been bench bleed "twice" and once in the vehicle. The bleeder on calipers are at the top and I have bleed the system numerous, numerous times using several methods pressure, vacuum, gravity, and pedal pumping and still the pedal is soft, there is a little pressure in the pedal but not till it is amost to the floor. I have also bled the system while cracking the lines here and there through out the system with no change. I am SURE the system is bled of all air.

The rear brakes have all new springs and components and has been adjusted so there is resistence when turning by hand. When the pedal is depress the disc and drums will lock but the pedal is still soft.

I adjusted the the pedal rod (original) so there is 1/8" of free play before actuation of MC and the rod is in the TOP hole.

At this point, I'm thinking "BAD" MC. So I plugged all four ports of the MC and when the pedal is depressed, it is as hard as a rock with no bleed down. So, the MC is "GOOD", right?.

I connect all the lines again, bleed the system and the pedal is "SOFT" again. Now, I disconnect the front brake line from the MC and plug it. Step on the brake pedal and it is hard as a rock. This tells me the rear system has no air or leaks.

I disconnect the rear brake line at the MC and plug it. I reconnect the front line to the MC and bleed the system and the pedal goes "SOFT". I rechecked the front lines and connections and found no leaks. I connected all the lines back together minus the adj. proportioning valve which was installed correctly (in to MC-out to rear brakes) that came with the kit and still the pedal is "SOFT".

There is no safety switch on my distribution block that would require resetting.

I'm sure there is no leaks because a FULL front and back MC reservoir will still be FULL after sitting for 3 days.

Is my Distribution valve "BAD"? But how can this valve be bad if I'm getting fluid to each of the front and rear wheels?

Why does the rear lock up with a hard pedal and not the front?

I called SSBC and they told me the MC needs to be bench bled, but, I bench bled the MC twice, bench bled it, installed it/pulled it out/bled it again, not to mention once in the car and all the system bleeding I've done. I'm "SURE" the MC is bled of all air.

PLEASE HELP, ANY INFO OR FEEDBACK WILL BE WELL APPRECIATED.

I'M TRIED OF BLEEDING.

Thanks Guys,

[davidpozzi]

That's terrible!
If you have stock type hoses, you can clamp them with the needle nose type vise grip pliers to shut them off. You have to pad them with some aluminum strips or heavy tape and only clamp down enough to shut off the fluid flow and not harm the hose.

It looks like a front brake problem.
Do you have a 1" bore disc brake master cyl?

Have someone push the pedal and watch the front calipers, any flexing of the caliper or brackets?
All it takes is a loose wheel bearing, mis-aligned caliper bracket or crooked pad to use up front brake travel.
David

[penquin]

Thanks for your reply David,

My MC has a 1" bore.

I have not clamped the front hoses but when I pump on the pedals, the LT & RT front calipers will compress and release and when the pedal is held both disc can not be turned, so it's locking up the front and rear.

It seems as if everything is working, I just can't get a hard pedal. The wheel bearings, bracket mounting bolts, and caliper mounting bolts all seem to be in the correct position, it doesn't seem to be way that they could get mis-align.

What's your take on my Distribution valve going bad and causing this problem?

Thanks for your help,

[davidpozzi]

I doubt the brake warning block would do that. It has no ports that aren't hooked to anything except where the wire connects to it. Of course if any of the flare seats is damaged it can leak or suck air.

Some caliper seats and master cyl seats do not come fully seated from the factory and the line must be tightened to bottom them fully.
I have heard of bleeders not seating correctly too.

Make sure your master cyl pushrod is adjusted with just a minimal clearance (.005" to .010") when the pedal is up.
Make sure the pedal is raising up all the way and contacting the rubber bumper and not stopped by the brake light switch.

Have you bled the master cyl lines at the master cyl port while on the car? Just crack the line wit a rag under it.
David

[ 03-13-2003, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: davidpozzi ]

[penquin]

I bled the M/C by cracking the front and back lines with someone pumping the pedal, that was my third attempt at bleeding the MC, twice out of the car and once in the car.

I'll check the M/C pushrod and pedal and the speed bleeders again.

I don't think the Distribution block is bad, but I thought I would ask because that is the only component that has not been changed in the brake system.

I'm going to call SSBC again, I just don't get it.

thanks, [img]graemlins/sad.gif[/img]

[MRCOOL_RSSS350]

make sure you don't have a sticky caliper piston.One more thing.Make sure you didn't install the calipers wrong. the left on the right and rignt on the left!!!That brings the bleeders at the bottom of the caliper and it makes it impossible to bleed [img]graemlins/clonk.gif[/img] Mr.
Nick

[Kyvox]

I had a very similar problem which took me YEARS to figure out. I replaced every part of the brake system, still no pedal. I finally pulled the master cylinder (3rd one) apart, and there was a small gouge in the piston seal. Replaced mc again, problem solved.

[rcatalano]

I had a similar problem when I replaced all of my brake components including the lines. No fluid was leaking out but no matter how many times I bled the system, I always ended up with a soft pedal. I finally located a fitting on the rear line that wasn't completely tight. It was tight enough to not leak but I guess it was allowing air to be drawn into the system. After I tightened the fitting, all was well. I would suggest double-checking all fittings for proper torque.

Good luck.

[Rob.Canada]

Hey Pen,
Are you checking this with the car sitting still?
Early disc brake cars always had a softer feel to the pedal, this could be noticed when sitting still, you can push the pedal almost to the floor,
Try it at 30 MPH and it would throw you through the windshield.
Try a gentle drive down the street, you may be surprised at how well the brakes work.

I have at times used this method when all else fails when bleeding brakes.
Jack front end up, place on stands, Pump up the brake pedal and Jam a board on the pedal to hold it in the applied postion, Remove cap from MC, top up fluid level, disconnect battery, leave it over night, Leave the MC cap on loose.
What you are doing is holding the MC ports open, any air in the system will bubble up through the lines into the MC as it sits all night.

Good luck and let us know what you find to get the brakes working.

[MRCOOL_RSSS350]

Hey Rob from ontario who are you working for metro?I work for the O.P.P Garage.Mr Nick.

[penquin]

Thanks for the feedback guys!

I called SSBC again and the guy I talked to said to go ahead and send the M/C back and they will do a bench check on it and if found to be bad they will replace it.

In the mean time, I'm going to try bleeding the brakes with my old drum M/C and see if I can get a hard pedal.

[Snatchin'gears]

Just went thru the R&R and bleeding game of the whole brake system. Without the engine on while bleeding the pedal will feel kinda soft. I used the speed bleeders and just pumped every from furthest to closest till no air at all was visible in the plastic line. Big bottles of synthetic fluid got used for the whole job. I'm with you on the bench bleeding a MC. I'm not sure if the cuss words have to be as fast as the pumping of the piston but I got mine done. The biggest pain is the tubing to the outlets back to the resevoirs. That rear resevoir might not bleed the air out the outlet but you can catch it bubbling air out into the resevoir while pumping or just sitting there. I used the plastic plugs supplied with the MC real quick after removing the plastic lines used for bleeding the MC then moved quick to install and get the lines on.
I hate to say this but some people employeed are to answer phones and don't know much and go off of paper. Hopefully this isn't the case. But I'm not sure and not a brake man. But it sure seems to me the front brake portion of the MC does engagement after the rear giving a soft pedal past half way results like you discribed. If your pedal doesn't reach floor board the front works. Then the rear adjustment from what I remember is go till tight tight and you must hear the shoes straighten out (ping, clank, bong, bang) then back to loose settings or you'll be pushing slack air between shoes and drum. If you have self adjusters in the rear just drive or roll the car in reverse and hit the brakes. That adjusts the rear brake shoes.
Good luck and look at the bright side. You'll get to bench bleed another MC. AGHHHHH!!!! I hate that game and wondering if all the air is out.
Good Luck and sorry if I'm a little weird. Just drank two cokes since it's so warm over here.