[jmar]

I'm finally installing a set of Landrum 550 lb front springs and their spring adjuster in my '69 Camaro.

In previous posts, Carlc gave excellent information regarding his experience with installing Landrum springs and spring adjusters in his '68 Camaro. Carl put photos and information on his web site for all of us to benefit.

So, this is a question for Carl or for anyone else who has done this install in a 1st gen Camaro.

Carl: Why 1/4" deep helix in the top of the spring adjuster? I measure a depth of about .350" - .400" change in depth due to the helix built into the upper spring perch.

Why not cut the helix about .350" deep so the spring adjuster rests in full contact and square with the upper spring perch? Why did you choose 1/4" for the helix depth that you cut into the top of the adjuster?

Also, I took out my old front coil springs by disassembling the lower ball joint. I positioned a floor jack about 1" below the ball joint under the shock mounting area and then separated the ball joint with a ball joint separator. BANG! The lower control arm popped off the spindle and was caught by the floor jack. Then I lowered the floor jack to take the spring out. (I had the spring chained to the frame during this procedure for safety sake.)

Question: How did you get the spring adjuster and Landrum spring back in? Were you able to get a spring compressor to compress the Landrum spring the required couple of inches?

Basically, I would like to know what procedure you used to do the Landrum spring and adjuster install.

You mentioned in your previous posts (or on your website) that you can take the suspension apart and make a spring height adjustment in about 1 hour now that you have the knack down.

What's the knack?

Thanks... looking forward to your repy or advice from anyone who has been down this road.

Thanks all.

Jim

[CarlC]

Maybe I screwed up measuring the depth of the spring pocket. Anybody else out there have a depth measurement?

As for installing the spring/adjuster, I put the adjuster in the spring, shove it up into the frame, and lift the A-arm up into postition. It's a bit of a pain but I lay on my back so I can see it align properly into the frame, then confirm that the lower is also properly clocked. Put a block of wood under the end of the A-arm to support the spring so it does not fall out then jack up the A-arm under the spring bucket. You will not need a spring compressor. You can almost pull the A-arm up enough by hand to get the ball joint in.

It's not so much of a "knack" as it is memory. After doing it several times you can walk over to your tool box and take out every tool you will need to do the job. Air tools help a lot too.

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The Red Beast http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

[This message has been edited by CarlC (edited 07-13-2002).]

[jmar]

Carl,
Thanks for the fast response. It's helpful to know that your 1/4" dimension is not necessarily "gospel".

Please confirm: Is the intent to cut a helix into the top of the spring adjuster that is equal to the depth of the helix in the upper spring perch? If so, I'll go with my measurement of about 3/8" deep.

Anyone else out there have a dimension for a '69 Camaro?

Also, Carl, thanks for the additional information on how you put your springs in. I had just about talked myself into doing it the way you describe, and now I have more confidence in this approach. Thanks for confirming your method.

Also, I like the idea of using a piece of wood to stabilize the spring so it does not kick out when the lower control arm is being raised by the jack... good tip... thanks. (I don't want a spring coming out... I hear that's real dangerous, possibly lethal.

By the way, what was your starting position for the spring adjuster? About 1/2 way screwed out? I figure I can always go + and - from the median starting point. Where did you start?

Thanks again.
Jim

[CarlC]

Jim,

You're correct on depth issue. The idea is to try and have full contact around the circumference of the adjuster. Next time I have mine out I'll check, but hopefully that won't be for a while!

You can try just sticking a jack under the A-arm. After you stuff the spring and adjuster in there you will find that it will take very little upward force to install the lower ball joint. It can almost be done by hand. The spring requires only a small amount of compression and is not nearly as dangerous as a full-lenght stock spring.

Measuring from the surface where the spring rides to the top of the flat on the other section (this makes using dial calipers very easy) you may want to try 1.25". The most I've ever run is 1.100" but with a 700# spring. I also use a sharpie to write the adjuster measurement on the side of the adjuster and the corresponding ride height. According to Guldstrand the best ride height for performance use should be where the center of the sphere in the lower ball joint is 1/2" lower than the center of the bolt in the front lower A-frame.

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The Red Beast http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

[jmar]

Excellent information, Carl. Thanks. It sure helps to have a starting point from someone who has "been there and done that". This is a great site thanks to people like yourself who have knowledge and, better yet, are willing to share it.

I agree that making the measurement as you suggest is easy with a set of dial calipers. I was wondering which reference to choose. Marking the measurement with a pen is also a good idea... will do.

I am anxious to see how my car sits using 550# springs with a BB, aluminum intake, headers and no a/c. I'll post my results in case anyone else needs the info.

Thanks again.
Jim

[68SSConvt]

Jim,

Ditto on everything Carl said. He is the person who gave me the most info when I did this last year. I also used 550# springs like you are going to use. I'm very happy with them.

I don't remember the exact measurement of the helix either. I made a template of heavy paper rolled up in the diameter of the adjuster and cut the helix and test fitted the rolled up paper in the spring pocket. I then just wrapped the paper around the adjuster and traced the helix to cut.

One additional thing I did was weld a bolt to the tip of the helix that fits through the existing hole in the spring pocket. This helps hold the adjuster in the correct position while installing the spring. http://www.geocities.com/hrayhouston...gadjuster.html


Thanks again Carl for your help in the past.

Ray

[jks67SS396]

i went with hypercoil springs 550# as suggested by david. the place i bought the springs from sold afco adjustable spacers. they are the exact same thing as the landrum spacers. (they redesigned the thing to look like landrums)

as per carls site, i cut the quarter inch helix in the top of the spacer and it works fine. just having the notch there is better than the flat top so you can seat the spacer.

also per carls site, i decided to take advantage of the hole in the subframe near the upper spring pocket. i had a friend weld a quarter inch stud to the spacer. then i shoved the spacer stud through the hole in the spring pocket and tightened it down with a locknut.

this makes adjusting the ride height MUCH easier (IMO). now, if shes a little off, i just have to drop the lower control arm, remove the spring, turn the adjusting plate and put the spring back in.

before i bolted the spacers in, i had to perform the balancing act that carl describes. and it would take me a half hour per side... way too long.

my car is almost ready to take on the road. ill let you know how it all works if youre interested.

both carl and david have great sites and my suspension rebuild/brakes wouldnt have been as good as they were without their help. much appriciated!

[ismail]

You can even adjust the springs probably by cutting geoove on the adjusters and turn it from outside. Sort of like drum brake adjustment. I will do that but I did not get to it yet. And I think there is a whole on the frame to do that.
Just my 2 cents.

[jmar]

Thanks for the additional comments from the last 3 contributors.

I have one spring in and my experience matches what Carl described. For the record, I measured the depth of the helix in the spring pocket in the upper control arm at about 3/8", so I cut a helix to that depth using a slitting wheel as Carl suggested.

This seemed to fit OK in my '69 Camaro, but I'm sure it's not a perfect fit. It would be nice if an ex-Chevy suspension engineer joined this site and could give us an engineering spec for the spring pocket.

The small hole that everyone is describing that is located in the upper control arm is an inspection hole, according to the GM chassis manual I have. The GM manual says to locate the spring in the pocket and clock it so that the end of the spring can be seen by looking through the small inspection hole. This assures that the spring is properly located in the pocket.

Now, to comment on the idea of welding a stud the the top of the Landrum spring adjuster so it can protrude through this inspection hole, I think that is a great idea for 2 reasons:

1) you know the end of the helix will be in the correct location in the spring pocket;

2) as was noted before, any subsequent adjustments to the Landrum adjuster would be very easy to make by, as was said, dropping the lower control arm, turning the adjuster as needed, then installing the spring and lower control arm again.

After getting my first spring and adjuster installed, I do not relish the idea of doing the balancing act again if I don't like my initial adjustment.

I'm thinking of welding a threaded rod to the top of the Landrum adjuster as was already suggested.

Hey everybody, maybe GM will hire us to do some engineering for them? Har, har.

Thanks for all the good input.

Jim

[Ripper]

Hi, I'm also thinking of buying landrum adjusters since the car is a little too low.. (like 1/2 - 1" or so..)
I was just wondering: Why must the adjuster be fitted on the upper mount? Can't I use it on the lower arm instead? This would make it easier to adjust..

/Anders

------------------
Firebird 74 - Vette C5
brakes, hotchkis/herb
adams suspension etc..
Check it out: www.propontiac.com

[jmar]

That's a good question. I've been wondering the same thing since installing one side with the adjuster placed in the upper control arm (UCA) spring pocket. There were no instructions with the Landrum spring adjuster or their springs. I put the adjuster in the UCA assuming that's how it was done by those who went before me, such as CarlC.

Putting the adjuster in the UCA made sense to me based on the comments in previous posts that the adjuster could be modified by welding a nut or stud to the upper edge that could be used to retain the adjuster using the small inspection hole that is in the top of the UCA. I assumed from this discussion that the adjuster was to be installed in the UCA.

But I admit that it seems like the adjuster could be installed in the lower control arm (LCA). This might be easier to do in my opinion, based on having done it the other way once. It seems to me that it would also be easier to make adjustments with the adjuster in the LCA as you pointed out.

The Landrum spring I bought to use with the adjuster has a open end and a closed and ground end that sits squarely on the adjuster. Therefore, the open end could be located in the UCA spring pocket as usual, and the adjuster, with the helix cut into it as discussed previously, could be situated in the LCA spring pocket.

The location of the spring in the UCA pocket could be checked by sighting through the inspection hole in the UCA according to the instructions in the GM chassis service manual. If it was location, the spring could be rotated to make sure the spring end could be seen through the inspection hole... to be done before the LCA is fully assembled and before the spring is loaded and can't be rotated.

And it would be easy to make sure the adjuster helix is properly located in the LCA spring pocket because it's easy to see.

This method of installing the adjuster in the LCA would make the adjuster nut more visible and accesible, making future adjustments much easier to make from what I can tell.

CarlC or anyone else: Any reason why this won't work?

Thanks.
Jim

[Joseph]

I just looked at my Landrum spacer setup and think it is NOT a good idea to have the spacer mounted to the LCA. The reason being is the control arm swings in an arc. I can not tell if there would be any interference between the adjuster and frame/spring pocket under suspension articulation but things are tight down there and would not want to chance it. The spacer will not move directly in and out of the spring pocket, it will move in an arc whose path may hit the frame. Also, having the spring on the LCA is a better deal because of its ability to deform/compress to the changing angle of the spring seat on the LCA.



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Joseph

1969 Camaro
Engine and Exhaust:
404 SB w/ 10.3:1 Eagle 4140 assembly in Dart Little-M block, AFR 210's, Crower #00350 short track solid cam 238/244 @ .050" on a 107 lobe center and .530" lift w/ 1.6 rockers, Holley 750 vac sec, Victor Jr., custom 1.75" headers, Spintech 2.5" exhaust with x-pipe and Sportsman XL mufflers.
Transmission:
1996 T-56, CenterForce Dual Friction clutch and billet flywheel
Suspension:
Guldstrand Mod. Landrum 600# front springs and adjustable spacers, Hotchkis 1.125" front bar, Detroit Eaton 175# rear springs, Bilstien shocks.
1971 Ford Bronco
Stock 302, 4" rock crawler suspension lift, 1.5" body lift, NP435 tranny, 4.11 gears, Detroit Locker rear diff., Power-Lock limited slip front diff., 33" BFG MudTerrain tires.

[jks67SS396]

"You can even adjust the springs probably by cutting geoove on the adjusters and turn it from outside. Sort of like drum brake adjustment. "

yeah i thought about this too... but never did it. i would say 5 slots around the spacer should do it...then a big pry bar to turn it...

but i think it would be murder on the powdercoat of the spacer (afco) and the spring (hyperco)

let me know if that works though...

[jmar]

Good information from Joseph and jks.

Questions for Joseph: 1) Did you cut a helix in your Landrum adjusters?; 2) If you did, how deep is your helix?; 3) Do you like the way the Guldstrand mod performs in your car?

Also, about notches around the Landrum adjuster... sounds like a good idea to me IF the upper half of the adjuster is positively held in place by a nut or stud welded to the top of the helix as discussed previously. This would keep the top section in the correct location while the lower portion was adjusted with a long, large screwdriver. I think I may try this aproach.

Jim

[Joseph]

Jim,

Yes, I did cut a helix. All I did to cut the helix was measure the deepest portion of the spring seat. If I recall correctly it was around 3/8". My measurement is not that important. What you want to acheive is having the spacer seat/contact as much of the spring pocket as possible so that the force/weight of the car is distributed over the greatest possible area on the frame. Also, get the spacer square with respect to the spring. With my 3/8" or so measurement I cut a linear, tapered line around the spacer to obtain the helix. With a trial fit to make sure the spacer fit square in the frame and I was set to go.

My car handles well with the Guldstrand mod. At Hotchkis' track day the car was neutral in and out of the corners. I was one of the slower cars on the tract due to stock brakes and crummy 235/60/15 and 265/50/15 BFG T/A radials with plenty of tread. As such, I did not feel comfortable with late breaking so can't give much insight there. The car never really felt "planted" with these tires. Personally, I would like to try having the car oversteer a bit, that is have the rear slide while exiting the turn. As I get more track time I'll tune the car to my novice preferences.

As for dialing in ride height I just marked the lower spacer into numbered quarters and one reference line on the upper spacer with a Sharpe pen. This allowed me to accurately measure each adjustment so I could duplicate for the other side. After about 5 adjustments I achieved my ride height and level to within 1/16". I have my front end spec'd per Guldstrand's advice.

Joseph