[Jeff H]

OK, the previous discussion made me think of a few questions. Of the first 50 cars that Gibb had ordered, did all 50 actually get delivered to his dealership or did he ask Chevrolet to take some of them back before they made it to his dealership? Once he saw what the price was and realized it would be impossible to sell them all didn't Chevrolet start to try and distribute them to other dealers before they even went to Gibb? And I forget, who was it that tracked the 69 VIN's and kept the recorded list? And who came up with the VIN of the prototype? And let's keep it [img]smile.gif[/img] . Thanks!

[DjD]

I think this explains it...

Taken from, http://www.copo.com/ZL1-History.htm

After the first two were received, the remaining 48 Camaros filtered in from February to the end of March, 1969. By that time, Gibb knew he would never be able to sell these cars at the $7,200 price set by Chevrolet, and was allowed to send most of them back to the Norwood, Ohio plant. Gibb received car numbers 1-52 excluding 3 & 51.

[Jeff H]

So I guess those 50 cars would show Gibb's dealership as the "shipped to dealer" in an NICB report. The delay in receiving the invoices is probably why he actually received all 50 of the cars before he could cancel them.

[68Baldwin]

I guess Dick Harrell had nothing to do with the Special BE rear,maybe it was Don Yenko....Jeff,Remember listen to the people that were ACTUALLY there,like Dave Libby,Jim Elgin,etc.I did work on the #4 Silver ZL1 that ED Cunneen had invoiced to another dealer,that Dealer being Courtesey Chevrolet in AZ,I proved to Ed that it went to Hauser Chevrolet in Bethlehem Pa,so its been changed.Other ZL1 cars were mismarked like the Lemans Blue ZL1 Camaro from Hauser Chevrolet,that was originally marked going to another Dealership.This car I found the original owner and he sent me original paperwork.What I'm trying to say is what was thought to be true for many years,has now been changed because of research.This is not heresay,this is FACTS! Please Jeff do not locked this post like you locked my last ZL1 Prototype post I started,Thanks Dan Palchanes

[paulm]

So what facts are in dispute? Where the cars were delivered, who came up with the idea, ???

[Jeff H]

Originally posted by paulm:
So what facts are in dispute? Where the cars were delivered, who came up with the idea, ???

Paul, I'm not asking anything about a dispute, I was curious if Gibb Chevrolet had actually taken delivery of the 50 cars he ordered. It appears he did. I do find it curious that someone kept track of all 69 ZL1 VIN's but the other COPO 427 VIN's were not tracked. If they were to be legal for a certain racing class I would think proof of 50 cars was needed for them as well. Unless the racing techs didn't differentiate between an aluminum 427 vs an iron 427 so the iron COPO cars were legal because of the ZL1's. Just like the JL8 option needed to documented to qualify for SCCA so I would think there is a list of all 206 cars with that option somewhere within Chevrolet. I'm just tossing some thoughts out there.

[Shtgnr]

Paul;
As stated in the previously locked thread,the ZL1 concept was developed by both Dick Harrell and Jim Hall ( from Chapparral racing fame). The dealers that were first asked to place the orders for the ZL1 was the Courtesy group based in the southwest, Phoenix included. The when the deal with Courtesy fell through, the Frank Late organization from from the Dallas area (also friends of Dick Harrell)was asked to front the cars. This also fell through and Fred Gibb was then asked and this deal worked and the cars were ordered. When Fred realized the price, he contacted GM and the cars were supposedly returned. In reality the usual procedure was to have the GM marketing manager try to shop the cars to other dealers and have them reinvoiced. According to some that were knowledgable, the cars never actually "went back" to Chevrolet, but the cars were more than likley reinvoiced and shipped from the Gibb dealership.
Bill Z.

[William]

ZL1 VINs are known because Vince Piggins at Chevrolet happened to have them written in a journal. Super Chevy printed the list in a 1981 issue.

There is more to the ZL1 story in the book Chevrolet=Racing? Written by someone who actually worked at the Tech Center, it has a lot of behind the scenes info. It was written in 1972 but has been re-released. It is true that Jim Hall was involved with the ZL1 engine; Harrells name is not mentioned. According to the author Chevy engineering had virtually no interest in drag racing.


http://www.camaros.org/copo.shtml

[DjD]

Don't take this back to where the other thread was guys!! I don't know where anything about BE rearends comes to play in Jeff's questions and I'm not about to spend time surfing all over other sites to figure out WTF this is all about but the forums here at camaros.net are not the place for all this ego thumping... You guys have some great knowledge to share and that's appreciated. This thread is just getting started and it will be closed if it goes in the direction the other one did!!

[paulm]

I still have no idea what was so wrong about the other thread, what ego thumping is happening in this thread and in general why this topic would cause such a fuss and even have the potential to be closed.


I'm just trying to learn a little about the history on these special cars.....

[Jeff H]

William, did Vince write down all the ZL1 VIN's and the complete RPO's for each one like the list on CRG? Or did those full descriptions come from somewhere else? That's a very descriptive list that makes me think there is real GM paperwork for those cars. Did Jim M have any paperwork for those cars? Like I mentioned earlier, I find it odd that those cars are so well detailed but the other COPO's, L89's and JL8's are not. I guess I'm hinting that I still think there was some form of GM paperwork that still existed. Dare to dream I guess. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[68Baldwin]

Bill,Yes excellent book,written by Paul Van Valkenburgh...Chevrolet-Racing Fourteen Years of Raucous Silence! 1957-1970 ISBN 0-7680-0529-9 ,I believe first print was 1972 ....Dan

[68Baldwin]

Bill,Your right about Harrells name being mention in the book.I think what is being said is Dick Harrell,known Chevy dragracer,influenced the use of a Street/Drag version 427 ZL1 using Fred Gibb as the 3 choice of Chevy Dealership to bring these 69 Zl1 Camaros in.Obviously this motor was developed by GM with the Cam Am guys,like McClaren.McClaren was not into the Dragracing Scene,Dick Harrell was. These early ZL1 427 motors (CamAm) were different then the ones used in the Production 69 1969 ZL1 427 Camaros....Bill,For instance you know about the O dash codes that GM used, and you know I have one of those motors.So could Harrell suggested making a Street/Dragracing version with GM with his proven Dragracing knowledge and his intimate connections with GM? Dan

[JOE58]

Paul Van Valkenburgh
Chevrolet - Racing? Fourteen Years of Raucous Silence!

This is a great book. Valkenburgh did have a comment about Chevy engineering not being interested in drag racing but I don't think he meant they weren't interested in winning drag races. The engineers were more interested in road racing where they could learn more about the road handling. Chevy engineering paid closer attention to the Jim Hall Chaparral and the Penske/Donahue TA Camaro but Chevy would have never made the 1963 Z11 427 lightweight cars or the 427 COPO cars if they didn't want to win drag races.
Getting back to the ZL1s. Something funny happened when Chevy first announced to the drag racing world that they were going to make an aluminum engine Camaro. They really pee'ed off the Chrysler boys who loved to watch the Hemi win races. I spoke with Bill Jenkins about his ZL1 Camaro which he built from his 69 L78 car in late 1968. He told me when he brought it to the first race it failed tech inspection and he was not allowed to run the car. He was told NHRA needed more proof that 50 ZL1s were really production cars. The Chrysler guys, including engineers from Chrysler who just happened to be at the race, protested the ZL1s. Chevy had to prove that 50 cars were not only built but were also sold. Vinnce Piggins (or someone in his product promotion group) had to go around to the Chevy dealers to collect information to prove to NHRA that they were in fact legal production cars. With the high sticker price of the ZL1s, this was no easy task. I'm not sure how this affected the Harrell/Gibb ZL1s because they ran AHRA but this may be why Vinnce still had the ZL1 vin numbers 20 years later.
Here is an intersting quote from the Chrysler boys from back in the day "Unfortunately, with the NHRA World Finals only a few months away in Texas, things were not going so great for the guys at Chrysler’s Performance Product Planning. What had happened was that Chevrolet had just succeeded in persuading NHRA to approve the new ZL1 Camaro for Super Stock C stick. These were lightweight Camaros with high-compression, mechanical-cammed 427 motors, decked out with aluminum parts. To be legal, they had to make 50 of them, but many people felt GM reached that number using mirrors. What really compounded the problem was that Bill “Grumpy” Jenkins and Dave Strickler quickly got the ZL1s dialed in to where they could run 10.90s on the soft SS/C 11.31 record. Now, you may not like the Grump because of his affiliation with the Bow Tie brand, but .............."

[68Baldwin]

Joe,Coool info,your always good with your input....Dick Harrell was connected with the AHRA ,infact I have a very special copy of a letter between Dick Harrell and Jim Tice President of the AHRA in 1966 about the 427 Classes for the 67 Camaros.This was address to Nickey Chevrolet Mr Dick Harrell....Got this just recently,totally took me by surprise!!! Dan