Why are matching #'s important? - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old Jun 8th, 01, 11:19 AM Thread Starter
DL
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David
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Sluis, Zeeland, The Netherlands aka Holland
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Question

Hello there,

Here a question from Europe. Why are matching numbers important for an oldtimer (1st gen Camaro in my case)?
I'm new here, and I was just wondering why, insurance?, to have an original car? or....?
This may sound weird for all you guys (and girls) but here in Europe,The Netherlands, a first generation camaro is very rare. So when accidently I see an Us car for sale here they all say "WE HAVE MATCHING #'s".

Thanx and sorry for my bad english
David

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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old Jun 8th, 01, 12:49 PM
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Chuck
 
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Hello, Matching #'s TRULY means matching a cars VIN # to the engine block vin stamping as it was applied at the auto mfg plant prior to eng installation......correct eng code (i.e. "CKO" etc is nice) but could still be from another similar car of the same year......Anyway for restoration enthusiasts and original collectors having the originally installed factory engine is of great phychological and $$ value.....These days many sellers make unfounded claims and have little proof, and on the other hand some people go to great lenghts to restamp(the assy date)of a block that has a "correct" casting date
Regards, Chuck Sharin/Seattle WA-USA
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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old Jun 9th, 01, 03:50 AM
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Gary
 
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There is great value is "numbers matching" to the degree that many do what CamaroRus says---Restamp. It's funny though, that you can change every single part on the car, but the driveline and cowl (where all the obvious and the "secret" numbers are stamped} and the car will be "original, numbers match. Mess with the engine, and the value drops significantly.
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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old Jun 9th, 01, 05:48 AM
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Brian
 
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In 1969 GM had a 50,000 mile power train warranty. That included all the muscle cars, and corvettes. You could take it to the races on Saturday, blow the engine and hava a new one by Tuesday. If you get a car that still has the original motor, transmission and rear end, and you are sure the car has not been tampered with, it is a real find. They do exist and many have strange stories how they survived. After over 30 years, and the tendency in the sixties and seventies to go to aftermarket speed goodies it is rare to find a true "numbers matching car". That is why they are valuable on todays market.
A warning! Don't pay high dollars for a numbers matching car unless you are absolutely sure. Check all the documentation, and get an expert to go over the car before you buy. You can waste a lot of money because you believed the seller.

------------------
Only 69 Z/28s
Garnet Red 30,000 mi
Glacier Blue
Rally Green new in 69
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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old Jun 9th, 01, 05:36 PM
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I have found that matching #'s really only matters to the purest's trying to win car show cars. Matching numbers are rare, so they cost more, but I believe a car should be all that it can be, which means taking advantage of technology. Some say wow matching numbers, others say wow blower and nitrous. I'm one of the latter. If you plan on making a lot of changes it does not make much sense to pay extra for matching numbers.
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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old Jun 9th, 01, 05:52 PM
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To be honest with you, matching numbers cars really are only important if the car and motor is high performance. i.e., 396,427, Z28, etc. The 350, 327, and inline 6 were a dime a dozen and most likely not driven as hard as the first two. Therefore, all these people who make claims to #'s matching have two goals in mind. One, they are trying to sell you something more then what it is, or they are very proud that an original motor made it this far in the same car. Either way, my response to the #'s thing is so what!
People pay extra for it, but those are usually the one with more $ than sense.
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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old Jun 10th, 01, 04:11 AM Thread Starter
DL
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David
 
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Thanks for the info guys, it helped me alot. For me it just doesn't matter if it has matching numbers or not, I just want to work on the car and then drive it....but first I have to find one out here!!!

Tnx
David.
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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old Jun 11th, 01, 02:23 AM
 
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David,

I couldn't find one in Europe, either, so I imported mine from the US four years ago. Its a '69 convertible with a 396 big block. The car is in great condition, but NOT numbers matching! See it at www.holroydm.freeserve.co.uk.

It's now for sale just over the channel from you in Cambridge, England -take a 45 minute flight from Amsterdam to Stansted, and I will pick you up from the airport if you want to come and see it.

Mike
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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old Jun 11th, 01, 04:23 AM
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Gary
 
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I agree with Dino regarding high performance. However I disagree that 327's and 350's are not desirable. All SS's used 350/295-300 as the base engine. While not as rare (or strong) as a big block, it's still a desirable car. An L79 327 with 4 speed is probably rarer than 350/300.Some guys bought them to avoid high insurance. Desirable? I'd rather have the SS, but I'd take a numbers L 79 over a non-numbers SS 350.
On the subject of rare....Rare does not mean valuable. A 6 cyl 3 speed with deluxe interior and power windows would be a rare combination---not particularly valuable, just rare.
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old Jun 11th, 01, 05:56 AM Thread Starter
DL
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David
 
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Hello 327MIKE,

Sorry, but your link isn't working!!!
Please send it again.....!!!

David
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post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old Jun 11th, 01, 07:22 AM
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If you see in the ad:

"All original"...car should have 99% of the same parts that were on the car when originally purchased, including paint.

"Numbers Matching"...VIN's were stamped into the engine and tranny and should match the car's VIN. Obviously paint, trim, and interior codes should "match" what's on the cowl tag. Date codes on parts such as the engine, tranny, alternator, rearend, heads, manifolds, etc, should be recent to the build date of the car. Car should have few if any "replacement" parts (i.e...a Raybestos Master cylinder)

"Correct Numbers" or "Period Matching" etc, will indicate the car has parts from other like models from the same year, but the parts aren't original to the car...maybe the date codes are off, but a 1967 Muncie was replaced with a 1967 Muncie...a 1967 327 was replaced with a 1967 327, etc.

This is rough and it's a moving target with sellers...be careful. In the end ask yourself, "what's the car worth to me?" An all original sweet running well optioned 6 banger with a powerglide ain't worth much to me. But a SS with replacement parts, few options, different engine block, aftermarket exhaust, torn seats, saggy doors, sqeaks and rattles, etc,...Now, that gets my attention.

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post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old Jun 11th, 01, 08:34 PM
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I think 327Mike link does not work because there is a period "." in the url. try: http://www.holroydm.freeserve.co.uk/
something to remember when pasting in a url, leave some space on both sides
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post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old Jun 11th, 01, 09:59 PM
 
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Thanks ibjoe, I was struggling to understand what had gone wrong!

Also, apologies if I have wrongly sneaked an Ad into the inappropriate forum.

I find "numbers matching" the most difficult concept to understand. "Original drivetrain", ie the parts bolted in the car when it was supplied I understand. But if replacement parts are fitted, what is the purpose of changing the numbers to match the VIN, other than to fool the unwary? I understand the value of correct date codes, etc, but numbers?

Mike

------------------
69 Camaro Convertible 402
www.holroydm.freeserve.co.uk
64 Gordon Keeble 327/300
www.gordonkeeble.com/registry/gk06/gk06.htm
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post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old Jun 12th, 01, 03:33 AM
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Gary
 
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Some guys argue that they change numbers to "make it accurate for judging" That may be true for some, but I suspect that others, it's to "fool the unwary"
I'm building a clone, and have tried to use correct casting numbers, list numbers, and other real Camaro parts (tranny, rear, etc.)

However they are not date matched, nor have I done any restamping to give the appearance that mine is anything other than a nice driver--A "tribute car" as Brian call them.
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post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old Jun 13th, 01, 06:32 AM Thread Starter
DL
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David
 
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Thanks ibjoe, I feel a bit stupid I haven't tried that out.

327MIKE, verrrrrry nice looking car you have there, but it is too expensive for me right now......I want to build up my own car (or how do you say that in the UK or US), I want to modify it whenever I get some money, work on it for a few years, and then......DRIVE IT. I'm looking for something around the $6000-$7000. But thanx anyway!!!

David
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