302 camshaft gurus wanted - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old Sep 8th, 12, 12:29 PM Thread Starter
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Bill
 
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302 camshaft gurus wanted

Before I begin let me give everyone a few details about the fresh engine.
It is a .030" over bored 327 block with a forged 283 crankshaft. The block is a small journal 1964 variety. The piston domes have been cut to achieve 10 to 1 compression with the #186 cylinder heads. All of the shortblock internal fasteners are by ARP. The rotating assembly has been balanced as well. I have two camshafts available for use, but I am not knowledgeable enough to pick the one that is right for my car and intended use of the car. Here is info on the car.

My car is an early Vega wagon (approximately 2,800 lbs). The car is a 4 speed (2.84 1st) with a 3.73" rear gear. The rear tire diameter is slightly larger than 25" diameter. This is meant to be a fun street car only and will not be raced ever. Next my cam choices.

Camshaft #1 is an original GM cam, the #346 used in the 302's.
The specifications are as follows:
114 LC, .485" lift on both valves, 254* at .050", advertised duration is 314*.

Camshaft #2 is an Elgin grind similar to the factory cam.
The specifications are as follows:
108 LC, .498" lift on both valves, 246* at .050", advertised duration is 280*.

Based on the car, and my intended vehicle use wihich camshaft would you use? I know that there are todays modern grinds , but these are my choices. I know what the idle quality and driveability will be with the GM cam; the question is what can I expect from the Elgin cam? Premium fuel will be a must with either choice, I suspect that the second cam will be more prone to detonation because of the tighter LC. How intense will the idle be compared to the GM cam? What does everyone here think about the choices? Both cams are flat tappet solids.

Thank you in advance,
Bill
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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old Sep 8th, 12, 02:27 PM
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Smile Re: 302 camshaft gurus wanted

I know everyone will flame me for this, but stay with a stock GM cam. You are using stock double hump heads and the new camshafts with their new technology is NOT going to work. To be technical the newly designed camshafts create too much port velocity for your old school heads. Yes, I have experienced this ! I also have two different emails from Team Camaro members talking about this exact problem with their 302's. (mine is a 327) so, if you want more like stock driving, use the -346 if you want more, use the GM off road cam, the -171.

old heads... use old cam. New heads... use new cam.

If you really do want fun... build a 383.

69 Camaro -originally a LM1 car. 327, Edelbrock E-streets, hooker, DUI performance distributors, ultradyne cam, stewart, TRW etc. Vintage Air, AGR steering, Corbeau GTSII seats, 700R4 transmission, 12-bolt w/Eaton 4.11:1
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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old Sep 8th, 12, 02:46 PM
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Smile Re: 302 camshaft gurus wanted

Actually with your lower compression and street only you may want to try the L79 hydraulic cam the -151.

69 Camaro -originally a LM1 car. 327, Edelbrock E-streets, hooker, DUI performance distributors, ultradyne cam, stewart, TRW etc. Vintage Air, AGR steering, Corbeau GTSII seats, 700R4 transmission, 12-bolt w/Eaton 4.11:1
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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old Sep 8th, 12, 03:30 PM
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Re: 302 camshaft gurus wanted

I would also suggest the L79 cam. Great cam for a 327 with the compression you have.

68 Camaro SS 396 - 468 BBC now, M21, 12 bolt 3.73 coded housing but w/ 3.31 gears.
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016
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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old Sep 8th, 12, 07:08 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 302 camshaft gurus wanted

I have used the L79 cam in 327's as well as 350's, the performance has always pleased me in both engines. The low to mid range torque characteristics of the #151 cam might be interesting in this engine. I know it performed extremely well in my old 1965 Impala 327/300 horse engine. It had the same compression that I will be running in this engine. Truthfully, I really do love the music of the solids clattering away at idle. I also know that the 151 cam dies at around 5800 RPM. The 302 is not even getting started at that RPM. However, the engine would rarely see that speed anyway. This is an interesting suggestion.
Bill
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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old Sep 8th, 12, 07:22 PM
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Re: 302 camshaft gurus wanted

Call the guys at Bullet Cams, ask for John or James.

Valve train componets have improved significantly since the 60's....one of the limitations back then was the springs. Different ball game now.

IMO using one of the old grinds would be leaving quite a bit on the table.

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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old Sep 8th, 12, 08:07 PM
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Re: 302 camshaft gurus wanted

With 10:1 compression, you might want to try a blue-print of the 350 lt-1 cam. Will give good driveability, nice idle sound, and make decent power. Anothe option might be a comp 12-673-4. Supoosed to be a modern 30-30. If you are looking for the most power, then should call a cam company for their recommendations. The old factory cams aren't the best, but they're not bad either.

Good Luck
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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old Sep 8th, 12, 08:23 PM
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Re: 302 camshaft gurus wanted

Either the 346 cam (30 30) if you like solid lifters, or the 350 horse 327 cam 3863152 casting number, 3863151 part number (or equivalent) if you prefer hydraulic.

You will love the performance with either, especially with your old school 186 heads. You didn't say whether you have 1.94 intakes or 2.02's This is just my opinion, and I am sure some engineer would dispute, but I would use the 30 30 with the larger valves, and the hydraulic with the 1.94's all other things being equal.

You also did not mention carberation. If you are at 600 cfm or smaller, go with the hydraulic cam. The 30 30 won't do you much good with a small carb. You also did not mention headers. The bigger your header, the more you need the 30 30. If you are running manifolds, then the hydraulic.

I also agree with TJS69. "old heads... use old cam. New heads... use new cam"

The 30 30 will require more maintenance, and will be a little bit less streetable. IMHO, both are acceptable for street driven vehicles.

Lynn
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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old Sep 8th, 12, 08:33 PM
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Re: 302 camshaft gurus wanted

X2

Quote:
Originally Posted by bilodeaulynn View Post
i also agree with tjs69. "old heads... Use old cam. New heads... Use new cam"

68 Camaro SS 396 - 468 BBC now, M21, 12 bolt 3.73 coded housing but w/ 3.31 gears.
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016
CRG -
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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old Sep 9th, 12, 06:16 AM Thread Starter
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Re: 302 camshaft gurus wanted

The cylinder heads have 2.02" and 1.60" valves. They also have guide plates and screw in studs, plus a three angle valve job. My carb is a Holley 650 DP on a Weiand Stealth manifold. The draw back will be my exhaust, iron manifolds. The Vega also has PS and PB. Currently the car has a very dead, oil leaking 262 V8. It is really a slug to drive which is why I am opting for the slightly bigger engine. The Vegas with a V8 tend to run hot. With the 262 it runs at 180*F even on the hottest days, this is a reason I do not want to go too big on displacement. Also, I do not want loads of torque at the lower engine speeds. I would prefer the torque /power to build gracefully with RPM's to save my 7.5" rear and lower control arm body mounts. The car does have a torque bar rear suspension from a 1979 Monza. It really does hook and go straight with this setup, but it is a small rear that will break badly with the higher torque of a 383 or a 400. My clutch is also a 10.5" diaphram variety.
As you can see this car really is designed for the street. I did not build it this way I bought it this way 5 years ago. It has been a fun, easy to drive car, even with the very anemic (110 horse) 262, but it is time to make a modest change in the engine combination. This information should present all the vehicle information, what does everyone think now?
Bill
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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old Sep 9th, 12, 08:11 AM
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Smile Re: 302 camshaft gurus wanted

Build it as a 327 and run the L79 (151) cam. The 301 you are thinking of building is a high revving engine that will never see high revs on the street, like you intend, with a 3:73 gear. A 301 built to rev, should have much lower gears. Think 4.88's or 5.13's. IMHO

69 Camaro -originally a LM1 car. 327, Edelbrock E-streets, hooker, DUI performance distributors, ultradyne cam, stewart, TRW etc. Vintage Air, AGR steering, Corbeau GTSII seats, 700R4 transmission, 12-bolt w/Eaton 4.11:1
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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old Sep 9th, 12, 08:38 AM
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Re: 302 camshaft gurus wanted

I agree you should go lighter on the cam on the street. After all, it's in a VEGA, which is going to haul @ss with anything other than that 262.
Building a high revving car for the street, at least where I live, is kind of pointless. Maybe check the Isky Z-25 or older factory solids if you really want solids.

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old Sep 9th, 12, 08:43 AM
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Re: 302 camshaft gurus wanted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanor's Nemesis View Post
Call the guys at Bullet Cams, ask for John or James.

Valve train componets have improved significantly since the 60's....one of the limitations back then was the springs. Different ball game now.

IMO using one of the old grinds would be leaving quite a bit on the table.
X2, don't saddle your motor with 40+ year old technology. Just because the motor is using factory castings doesn't mean you can't (or shouldn't) run a modern cam design. As pointed out the springs were a huge limiting factor in the old motors.

On a side note, Vega wagons are cool, I had a panel delivery back in the 80's, love to see Vegas around still

Sean

1968 rs with an old school 354" SB2.2 pump gas motor.

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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old Sep 9th, 12, 02:45 PM
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Re: 302 camshaft gurus wanted

Sean, it doesn't necessarily work that way. The old design heads and cams tend to work together best. Mixing of old and new components tends to get mixed results. There are dozens of posts in regards to that on this site and on the Chevelle site.

Quote:
This is meant to be a fun street car only and will not be raced ever.
Based on the intended use of this car, I believe the "old" technology will work just fine.

68 Camaro SS 396 - 468 BBC now, M21, 12 bolt 3.73 coded housing but w/ 3.31 gears.
Looking for 68 Camaro with body number NOR 181016
CRG -
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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old Sep 9th, 12, 05:38 PM
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Re: 302 camshaft gurus wanted

I will have to disagree, that just doesn't make sense to me and I will bet it wouldn't make sense to the cam manufacturers either.
The old cams have lobes designed for inferior springs, so the ramps etc. will leave power on the table. Use good springs and modern lobe designs and you will make more power everywhere.

Now, yes this is a street car and maybe leaving horsepower and torque on the table is no big deal, and thats fine, but why? Modern does not necessarily mean "race".

To say old heads like old cams is like, oh I don't know, saying old steel wheels are better of with bias ply tires...

I beleive we will have to agree to disagree.

Sean

1968 rs with an old school 354" SB2.2 pump gas motor.

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