Break-in No Start - Team Camaro Tech
Troubleshooting Diagnosing problems done here.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old Jul 10th, 10, 06:55 PM Thread Starter
Senior Tech
Brian
 
PA Camaro Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 642
Angry Break-in No Start

So today I attempted to crank my 69's 383 for the first time in its life. The starter would spin it, it would give a brief rumble, then quit as soon as I laid off the starter. I can hear that it wants to start, but it won't catch.

Here is some background I can provide:

*Set it up as 15 degrees BTDC, and the distributor was properly installed on #1 compression stroke (really doubt I have a 180 problem). Ignition is aftermarket HEI. I checked that my plug wires coming off the cap go to the right cylinder numbers.

*Carb is an out of the box Holley Avenger (they come pretty close to set up out of the box), Gauge on the fuel rail says I'm getting 6lbs fuel pressure on cranking, Sight plug shows float at the top of the bowl and gas just at plug level.

So what else to look at? I know I have spark because the motor is making noise, it just won't catch and keep running (or really START running for that matter).

1969 Camaro 383
2.02/1.63 & 234/244 Vortec
TH350 / 12 bolt 3.73
PA Camaro Guy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old Jul 10th, 10, 07:21 PM
Senior Tech
george
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: detroit
Posts: 2,292
Re: Break-in No Start

I can think of a dozen reasons she does not light off..but first off,you need full system volts available to the the Hei during cranking.Back in the past..point style dizzys got full voltage from the starter solenoid on cranking and then reverted to the resistor wire while running so as to not burn the point contacts.If you are trying to fire off thru the resistor wire alone..the hei will not generate enough spark energy to light off the a/f.

George
68 Camaro
8-71 blown 461 Rat on E-85
fatblock is offline  
post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old Jul 11th, 10, 01:31 AM
Senior Tech
John
 
parkbrau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Stuttgart
Posts: 8,032
Re: Break-in No Start

Is the top end full of oil? Did you prime the oil system before starting is what i'm getting at. That's one of a few places to start.

good luck. Once it comes alive you're gonna have a grin on your face.
parkbrau is offline  
 
post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old Jul 11th, 10, 06:43 AM
Senior Tech
Dan Ensign
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Claverack,NY
Posts: 366
Re: Break-in No Start

How much did you pump the gas pedal, fresh motors require a good amount of fuel to get going.

Dan E.
69 SS396 4spd. 4.10 posi. x66 coupe
Dan E. is offline  
post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old Jul 11th, 10, 07:09 AM Thread Starter
Senior Tech
Brian
 
PA Camaro Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 642
Re: Break-in No Start

I think my motor needs a beer.

I did a full prime the oil system to 50 lbs before I started but did NOT pump the gas pedal like crazy. I had a full carb. That was before attempt #1. On first attempt I got a backfire through the carb and so I stopped and looked everything over, including pulling the dizzy and re-installing just incase I was 180 off. That took maybe half hour, so I did not reprime, and made attempt #2. On #2, backfire, so I stopped and looked it all over more closely. This time it took probably an hour, and I discovered I had plugs #4 and #6 crossed. Didn't reprime either, didn't seem like it was necessary given all the previous starting attempts. On #3 it sounded right, no backfires, but just wouldn't catch. It was at this point I cranked it probably three times then lost my battery.

Also I don't understand the HEI voltage comment fully--- but I would think if I'm getting ignition when the starter is spinning it (i.e. I have the sound of combustion), I have spark?

1969 Camaro 383
2.02/1.63 & 234/244 Vortec
TH350 / 12 bolt 3.73

Last edited by PA Camaro Guy; Jul 11th, 10 at 07:22 AM.
PA Camaro Guy is offline  
post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old Jul 11th, 10, 08:17 AM
Senior Tech
Steiner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Lyman, SC
Posts: 8,348
Re: Break-in No Start

Do you have the electric choke Street Avenger? If so, make sure the positive lead is wired somewhere that it gets power only with the key on. When you turn the key on and pat the gas once, the choke plate should slam shut and a squirt of gas should come out. Then it should fire right up. Try holding the pedal to the floor when you are starting it to let some more air in to verify that it's not just flooding out with the repeated start attempts. Once it fires the choke should hold it running and give you time to run over and turn the idle speed screw in to hold it at a higher speed if you're going to do a break in.

Regarding the HEI comment by George, the BATT line to your HEI should come from the IGN spade on the fuse block inside the car. If it is connected to the cloth covered resistor wire that is coming from the bulkhead connector you're only getting around eight volts. An HEI will still usually fire off that wire though but once you get any kind of high engine speed going it'll run out of poop.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

'69 Camaro Beater-SFT 327-M20-Moser 4.10-sold
'02 Z/28 vert-stock-sold and totaled
Steiner is offline  
post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old Jul 11th, 10, 08:26 AM
Senior Tech
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 1,635
Re: Break-in No Start

Quote:
Originally Posted by PA Camaro Guy View Post
I think my motor needs a beer.

I did a full prime the oil system to 50 lbs before I started but did NOT pump the gas pedal like crazy. I had a full carb. That was before attempt #1. On first attempt I got a backfire through the carb and so I stopped and looked everything over, including pulling the dizzy and re-installing just incase I was 180 off. That took maybe half hour, so I did not reprime, and made attempt #2. On #2, backfire, so I stopped and looked it all over more closely. This time it took probably an hour, and I discovered I had plugs #4 and #6 crossed. Didn't reprime either, didn't seem like it was necessary given all the previous starting attempts. On #3 it sounded right, no backfires, but just wouldn't catch. It was at this point I cranked it probably three times then lost my battery.

Also I don't understand the HEI voltage comment fully--- but I would think if I'm getting ignition when the starter is spinning it (i.e. I have the sound of combustion), I have spark?
With the key in the run position you should have 12 volts to the distributor. One other thing, if you have a helper try turning the distributor slightly both ways while cranking and see if that helps.
deerhunter is offline  
post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old Jul 11th, 10, 03:29 PM Thread Starter
Senior Tech
Brian
 
PA Camaro Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 642
Re: Break-in No Start

This HEI business is somewhat interesting. My Mallory has an integral controller with it. The base of the distributor has a three wire harness. One wire is to ground, one comes from the coil, and one comes from the resistor block on the firewall (per their instruction- they say if this is not in place the controller will burn out). I could swear up and down I wired it the way they said....

As far as the electric choke goes, I notice that it starts out closed and then very quickly opens all the way up. I know for a fact I'm not building any heat whatsoever so the choke seems a little suspect....Maybe I can try disconnecting it so it will stay down?

1969 Camaro 383
2.02/1.63 & 234/244 Vortec
TH350 / 12 bolt 3.73
PA Camaro Guy is offline  
post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old Jul 12th, 10, 02:14 PM Thread Starter
Senior Tech
Brian
 
PA Camaro Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 642
Re: Break-in No Start

For those of you playing from home here is the schematic for how Mallory says to wire my distributor. This is what I did. Does this mean that some HEI's will require the 12v but then some apparently need only 8v? Or did I not read this right?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/4788077564/

1969 Camaro 383
2.02/1.63 & 234/244 Vortec
TH350 / 12 bolt 3.73
PA Camaro Guy is offline  
post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old Jul 12th, 10, 05:26 PM
Senior Tech
Steiner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Lyman, SC
Posts: 8,348
Re: Break-in No Start

Gotcha. I assumed it was a regular HEI but that appears to be a small cap retrofit type. As long as the yellow wire from the starter relay is connected to the + terminal of the coil along with your resistance wire it looks like you're right.

You can adjust the choke timer by loosening the three small screws on the black cover and rotating it. For me, it worked best set as is from the factory. That would be right in the middle so that when you look at it the electrical terminals are perfectly level.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

'69 Camaro Beater-SFT 327-M20-Moser 4.10-sold
'02 Z/28 vert-stock-sold and totaled
Steiner is offline  
post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old Jul 12th, 10, 06:14 PM Thread Starter
Senior Tech
Brian
 
PA Camaro Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 642
Re: Break-in No Start

Thanks Steiner. Two things:

First, per that wiring diagram linked above- the part about "all other wires originally connected to coil (+) terminal" that for me is zero other wires. I just have my IGN switched positive running through the resistor block to the coil + and the dizzy controller red. Were you saying you'd believe this is correct per the picture?

Yes I meant to say its an electric choke Avenger. I saw the benefits of paying a couple extra bucks to get a carb that would be close to right out of the box and hence one less variable. It will be amusing if I discover that this is as simple as an over-zealous choke. I'll crack open that little black suitcase and dial it like you say. It'll be better than where it is at, at any rate.

1969 Camaro 383
2.02/1.63 & 234/244 Vortec
TH350 / 12 bolt 3.73
PA Camaro Guy is offline  
post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old Jul 12th, 10, 06:58 PM
Senior Tech
Steiner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Lyman, SC
Posts: 8,348
Re: Break-in No Start

According to the drawings, that is correct. The "all other wires" in this case seems like you should still be running the "booster" wire from the starter if they have you using the resistor wire as your running supply. Your starter should have two small terminals on it, one marked "S" which should have a wire already on it (starter solenoid) and one marked "R" which is sounds like has nothing on it right now but with an old points and resistor system is used for full voltage and higher current availability for cranking. You can try running a piece of 14AWG wire from the "R" terminal to the + terminal on your coil. What that does is supply the ignition with a full 12V when cranking only.

Make sure you don't have 12V on the choke with the key turned all the way off and that it does have 12V with the key turned to "RUN" or "ON". I fed mine from the single wire plug on the windshield wiper motor.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

'69 Camaro Beater-SFT 327-M20-Moser 4.10-sold
'02 Z/28 vert-stock-sold and totaled
Steiner is offline  
post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old Jul 12th, 10, 07:08 PM Thread Starter
Senior Tech
Brian
 
PA Camaro Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 642
Re: Break-in No Start

ok. so the coil can function with an 8v supply? I guess so... ?

Come to think of it, I used to have the old style Accel coil that had oil in it. They were big and yellow, for points? That thing ran off of the same resistor block. I didn't bother to measure that resistor block to see that it was in "spec" I imagined they are all the same....

1969 Camaro 383
2.02/1.63 & 234/244 Vortec
TH350 / 12 bolt 3.73
PA Camaro Guy is offline  
post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old Jul 12th, 10, 07:18 PM
Senior Tech
Steiner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Lyman, SC
Posts: 8,348
Re: Break-in No Start

If you've got a part number for that distributor, I can look up the instructions and take a look. Just from the instruction sheet you posted it seems to be set up to run with the original points type power setup. They give no info on the coil in the picture to say whether or not it is a constant 12V or "points" type coil.

Most breakerless ignitions will still function with the resistor there. However, at higher RPM's where the power requirements to fire are higher they start to have issues. I'd take a look at running that booster wire from the starter first.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

'69 Camaro Beater-SFT 327-M20-Moser 4.10-sold
'02 Z/28 vert-stock-sold and totaled
Steiner is offline  
post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old Jul 12th, 10, 07:29 PM Thread Starter
Senior Tech
Brian
 
PA Camaro Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 642
Re: Break-in No Start

Sure thing. I'll see if I can find the PN for ya. Appreciate the offer.

My coil is the basic off the shelf at Pep Boys MSD Blaster HEI.

You know you mention my SS.... that's a part I have actually never seen. My car had the steering column all torn apart decades ago, and now its been rigged to turn the key to get the GEN light to come on, and the starter is a separately mounted push button. I kinda like it, it's grown on me. But I have no clue where they might have stashed my SS.

1969 Camaro 383
2.02/1.63 & 234/244 Vortec
TH350 / 12 bolt 3.73
PA Camaro Guy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Tags
break in, won't start

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Team Camaro Tech forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address.
NOTE we receive a lot of registrations with bad email addresses. IF you do not receive your confirmation email you will not be able to post. contact support and we will try and help.
Be sure you enter a valid email address and check your spam folder as well.



Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome