Starter heat soak issue....is it too late? - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 87 (permalink) Old Apr 23rd, 11, 07:43 PM Thread Starter
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Starter heat soak issue....is it too late?

I had my starter Powermaster 9500 not crank on me many times now due to heat soak. Seems like it happens a lot easier now, almost EVERY time I drive the car and seems like it takes longer each time for it to cool off and start. I got a starter blanket today.
Before I put it on, my question: Do starters/solenoids eventually go bad after too many heat soaks? Do I need to get a new starter (and wrap it) or is the old one still good and I just need to wrap/insulate it?

Matt

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post #2 of 87 (permalink) Old Apr 23rd, 11, 08:08 PM
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Re: Starter heat soak issue....is it too late?

The blanket is just a little added protection for a properly functioning starter. It's a bandaid at best for one that is failing. Heat soak is nothing more than (in simple terms) a reduction of voltage created by resistance. A loose battery or ground cable can cause the same symptoms just as easy as the windings of your solenoid being over heated (heat soak). There are also contacts in the solenoid that can wear so you have several things to look into before buying a new starter.

If you do get a new starter get a "perminate magnet" starter like used in newer cars and you'll never have heat soak again. I put one of these on my 383 in 2007 and have not had a starter issue since...

http://www.qualitypowerauto.com/catalog.php?item=30

...Dennis

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post #3 of 87 (permalink) Old Apr 23rd, 11, 08:42 PM
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Re: Starter heat soak issue....is it too late?

For what its worth Matt I have a factory starter in my 68 and have always had headers. Been driving with the same starter for 12 years with about 1/4" clearance and no issues.

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post #4 of 87 (permalink) Old Apr 23rd, 11, 11:29 PM
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Re: Starter heat soak issue....is it too late?

The question comes up again...
What is you intial with VA disconnected..
heat from headers is BS....ask any Auto electrican woth his salt...or ask anyone who has measured temps inside a starter after engine heats up, and after starting an engine with intail too far advanced.
Discussed many a time.
But as Dennis sugests check you contacts/terminals 1st..and battery alternator condition/terminals.

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

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post #5 of 87 (permalink) Old Apr 24th, 11, 07:41 AM
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Re: Starter heat soak issue....is it too late?

I had heat soak issues and didn't have headers, when I added an external ford solenoid on the firewall, problem solved and never happened again. Easy fix
Just hated having a ford part on my camaro

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post #6 of 87 (permalink) Old Apr 24th, 11, 07:51 AM
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Re: Starter heat soak issue....is it too late?

beat this heat soak issue to death!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
dont ya think??????


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post #7 of 87 (permalink) Old Apr 24th, 11, 09:57 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Starter heat soak issue....is it too late?

Back to my original question that I don't think has been answered.

Do too many heat soaks weaken/hurt/render unreliable/eventually kill a starter?

I had this new starter on the car for 6 months and there have been about 15 instances (pain in my butt) where I was ready to leave and the starter would not crank. I am sure the heat soak issue occurs each time I drive the car but the car sits long enough to where things cool off and it will start. It seems like I have to wait longer and longer each time this happens. For example, I drove the car yesterday with 50 degree outside temp, 160 engine temp when I shut the car off. Came out 2 hours later and the starter would not crank. Waited another 30 mins and the car started just fine. I don't remember having these issues on 50 degree days and if I did, I certainly don't remember waiting 2.5 hours for the darn thing to cool off.

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post #8 of 87 (permalink) Old Apr 24th, 11, 10:09 AM
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Re: Starter heat soak issue....is it too late?

I had a similar problem in my 77 Jeep CJ. I ended up replacing the ignition switch on the steering column and the problem went away. I pried the old one apart and the "start" contact was burnt up. I wonder if a first gen ign switch could have the same issue.

When it happens again, check for voltage at the wire from the ign switch on the solenoid during start.

EDIT I forgot to mention my Jeep has a Chevy350. same starter system as Camaro except ignition switch.

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post #9 of 87 (permalink) Old Apr 24th, 11, 12:41 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Starter heat soak issue....is it too late?

I went ahead and wrapped the starter using DEI heat blanket. I doubled up the blanket around the area closest to the headers. I also closed off the hole at the end by folding and taping the blanket onto itself. We'll see what this buys me, if anything. Now for a test run...




Matt

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post #10 of 87 (permalink) Old Apr 24th, 11, 01:15 PM
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Re: Starter heat soak issue....is it too late?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zlek131 View Post
Back to my original question that I don't think has been answered.

Do too many heat soaks weaken/hurt/render unreliable/eventually kill a starter?

I had this new starter on the car for 6 months and there have been about 15 instances (pain in my butt) where I was ready to leave and the starter would not crank. I am sure the heat soak issue occurs each time I drive the car but the car sits long enough to where things cool off and it will start. It seems like I have to wait longer and longer each time this happens. For example, I drove the car yesterday with 50 degree outside temp, 160 engine temp when I shut the car off. Came out 2 hours later and the starter would not crank. Waited another 30 mins and the car started just fine. I don't remember having these issues on 50 degree days and if I did, I certainly don't remember waiting 2.5 hours for the darn thing to cool off.
Do too many heat soaks weaken/hurt/render unreliable/eventually kill a starter? Not the starter but maybe the solenoid itself, that is what actually heat soaks. The solenoid is a wire wound electro-magnet and heat can melt the fine wire windings and heat causes expansion and then contraction as it cools that could loosen a connection.

I have never seen a starter solenoid that heat soaked causing a starter to fail reverse itself. I put a heat shield on my old starter and it helped but the problem still happened, just less often!

Food for thought:

Heat soak happens in an engine every time you shut the engine off. If you watch the temp gauge you will see it go up after you shut it down. That's because the fan stops, the fluid isn't flowing etc, so the block gets hotter for some time after shutdown.

Now your heat shield (blanket) blocks radiant heat which is what you feel as you put your hand close to the exhaust pipe. You know as you get your hand closer it gets hotter but it doesn't burn you like it would if you actually touched the hot metal! Same with your starter solenoid, the heat that really kills is heat from contact with the block and heat from electrical resistance (poor contacts, loose connections and wiring up against the block or headers).

A permenate magnet cannot heat soak like a coil wire electro-magnet. That's your best answer followed by remote mounting of the solenoid to get it away from the heat.

...Dennis

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post #11 of 87 (permalink) Old Apr 24th, 11, 03:04 PM
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Re: Starter heat soak issue....is it too late?

Quote:
Do too many heat soaks weaken/hurt/render unreliable/eventually kill a starter?
The issue is too much adavance on fire up...this can draw 900 + amps plus.
This intantly heats the armiture coils like a soldering iron....and eventually causes dry jionts on the armiture.....when cold these joints contract are have good continunity...when the starter armiture is WARM not hot....these dry joints expand and u have your issue of starting,

The same can apply to the solenoid, espec if the contacts inside are worn....
in the case of the soleniod being the problem 9 times out of 10 it is simply the copper contact in the solenoid worn.....which can be simply turned over .

there is not enough heat able to get to an armiture or a soleniod due to the air gaps invloved, to cause any starting issues, or to cause any damage/ dry joints....
The only way such heat can do damage is overadvanced intial timing (not idle timing)

Quote:
Do too many heat soaks weaken/hurt/render unreliable/eventually kill a starter?
Going on the above.....yes...but "heat soak" from headers etc is a myth....only exists on a starter that has already been stuffed...or rebuilt starters that have not had the armiture on a growler or oven heated and continuinty tested....which is most.

Cammed engines require more idle timi8ng to idle reasonably stable....
The intial is kept low, 10 to 12 maybe 14 degs...engine spins easy, fires, thewn the manifold vac comes in taking the idle advance up to the required 16 or 18 or whatever u want.

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

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post #12 of 87 (permalink) Old Apr 24th, 11, 05:59 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Starter heat soak issue....is it too late?

Ran around all day and had no issues but it's only been a 40 degree day here. I did see the temp gauge hit 170 after a 30 minute heat soak but all good. True test came when I got home and shut the car down at 160 and let it heat soak for 45 mins in the garage all the way up to 175. Cranked the key, and NOTHING. Waited another 15 minutes when the temp gauge read around 173 and the starter turned over. The old way with no blanket, I would have waited anther good half hour with the hood open and fans on until the temp went down to around 140 before the starter would turn over. So... it helped but didn't really cure it, very similar to what Dennis reported.

I checked all my connections and grounds and they appear to be all good. This issue has gone from a very rare occurrence ,to not so rare and I'll deal with it, to very annoying. I think it's time for a new starter. I am going to start looking into the perminate magnet starter route...

Matt

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Last edited by zlek131; Apr 24th, 11 at 06:45 PM.
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post #13 of 87 (permalink) Old Apr 24th, 11, 10:08 PM
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Re: Starter heat soak issue....is it too late?

Quote:
This issue has gone from a very rare occurrence ,to not so rare and I'll deal with it, to very annoying. I think it's time for a new starter.
what I was saying above m8...
Quote:
Quote:
Do too many heat soaks weaken/hurt/render unreliable/eventually kill a starter?

Going on the above.....yes...but "heat soak" from headers etc is a myth....only exists on a starter that has already been stuffed...or rebuilt starters that have not had the armiture on a growler or oven heated and continuinty tested....which is most.
Quote:
I am going to start looking into the perminate magnet starter route...
Which doesnt address the intail timing armiture issue

Quote:
I checked all my connections and grounds and they appear to be all good.
And the intial timing???

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

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post #14 of 87 (permalink) Old Apr 24th, 11, 11:41 PM
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Re: Starter heat soak issue....is it too late?

the solenoid is bad --you can fix it without replacing but i recommend replacing and installing heat shield and chek timing
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post #15 of 87 (permalink) Old Apr 25th, 11, 12:36 AM
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Re: Starter heat soak issue....is it too late?

Funny. Their main marketing line for those starters is "no heat soak problems". It's got to have some other problem. Had it for over a year already? If it's out of warranty DB Electrical will fix you up for fifty bucks.

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