Timing issues, is it cam walk?? - Team Camaro Tech
Troubleshooting Diagnosing problems done here.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 51 (permalink) Old Jun 18th, 11, 08:04 AM Thread Starter
Gold Lifetime Member
Randy
 
simer341's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Ontario
Posts: 65
Timing issues, is it cam walk??

Hello,
with great success in the past,I thought I would try here again.Wondering if anyone could offer advice to my tuning issues. Been having problems since day one trying too tune this car of mine,so here is what I have.

The car is a 69 Camaro with freshly rebuild 302

Heads: are 202's with roller tip rocker arms,not sure of lifters have to ask engine builder.

Cam: have the spec's some were but is on the wild side.

Intake: Stock

Carb: Holley HP 650

Dizzy: MSD all in one (8360) / Coil is a pertronic's

So here is what is happening,

I have set timing at 18*intal, total timing is 42*. the vacuum advance has been locked out. And a 20* advance stop is being used.

when the car is started cold (no problems to start) the timing is reading 28* intal, 52* all in.
then goes back to original settings once temp has been reached.

Vacuum from manifold has always been around 5 to 6 inches But like the timing, vac is also increased when first started,9in of vac is reached.. (taken from brake booster port) I do get the same reading off the correct carb port too. I have also checked for vacuum leaks and haven't found any.

Is this CAM WALK ??? I tried wegding a piece of wood between the water pump and timing cover and made no difference.



I know I have issues with the carb settings too,would changing the power valves help ?? because of the low vacuum are the valves stuck open and cause a rich mixture resulting in low vac readings??.

also if I run less timing eg 10* to 12* I will get backfiring threw the carb.


thanks in advance

Randy

69 Z/28 Hugger Orange/Deluxe/comfort weave interior / #'s matching ,nut & bolt restoration

69 Z/28 10 10 car,Original look with a few upgrades, Zl1, TKO 600,Currently in the works.

7o Z/28 Mulsanne blue, Original drive train,4:10,4-speed,standard steering,one owner, Canadain documented car.
simer341 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 51 (permalink) Old Jun 18th, 11, 09:12 AM
Gold Lifetime Member
Skip
 
Skeeter55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: CA
Posts: 6,628
Re: Timing issues, is it cam walk??

Have you tried a different distributor? I have had a problem when checking total timing at 3k and it advanced about 6*. Not a cam walk but a MSD distributor that had a bad pick up.

I NEED TO HIT THE LOTTERY
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Skeeter55 is offline  
post #3 of 51 (permalink) Old Jun 18th, 11, 09:38 AM Thread Starter
Gold Lifetime Member
Randy
 
simer341's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Ontario
Posts: 65
Re: Timing issues, is it cam walk??

I haven't yet but going too.I have another brand new MSD 8360 which I'm going to try.

Last night I installed a MSD blaster coil (new) and it would start, but ran as if there was to much timing (which I hadn't touch),put back the pertronic coil and started right away.

odd stuff happen,I myself think I got a bum unit.

thanks for the reply

69 Z/28 Hugger Orange/Deluxe/comfort weave interior / #'s matching ,nut & bolt restoration

69 Z/28 10 10 car,Original look with a few upgrades, Zl1, TKO 600,Currently in the works.

7o Z/28 Mulsanne blue, Original drive train,4:10,4-speed,standard steering,one owner, Canadain documented car.
simer341 is offline  
 
post #4 of 51 (permalink) Old Jun 18th, 11, 03:02 PM
Gold Lifetime Member
Mickey
 
Moonpie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Mesquite Texas
Posts: 2,151
Re: Timing issues, is it cam walk??

I doubt you're getting cam walk. If you were there would only be a few degrees difference going back and forth and back and forth.
18 degrees initial is a LOT. If you're getting backfiring when backing the timing down to 10-12 I would suggest finding TDC and checking the timing marks. I wonder if someone retarded the cam. You might end up having to degree the cam and find out what the heck is going on. What does your engine builder say about any of this?
Moonpie is offline  
post #5 of 51 (permalink) Old Jun 18th, 11, 04:31 PM Thread Starter
Gold Lifetime Member
Randy
 
simer341's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Ontario
Posts: 65
Re: Timing issues, is it cam walk??

engine builder/good friend,has heard all about my issue I ask of his advice and then try to correct the problem myself.It is how I learn and helps me to somewhat understand the in's and out's of my car when shooting the breeze with other car guy's at the local cruz-in's.

So he (the engine builder) knows that the cam was degree properly,and did run on the dyno without issue's.

My timing issue start when I switch to the MSD,my stock dizzy which was updated to pertroinc's,broke when the bushing that limits the the advance came off and that's when I thought, that somethings 40 yrs old maybe worth updating and may provide better driveablity to which I decided to put on the holley 650 HP as well .Hard to see under the air clearer so I made the switch.

I always had carb issues with the stock 780 which was restored by the famous Eric from the super car site. I changed out the PV's too 3.5 due the the lack of vac.and ran good, but room for improvement,always rich on the bottom end but the top end it would revved to the moon.never got to playing with nozzles and should check the slot underneath just to make sure it was idling in the proper circuit.

My balancer is new with timing tape on it and fairly easy to read.

what I and my engine builder can understand is whats is causing the timing to advance 10* when it cool then retard to where it has been set to.It's the same all the time.

I agree that my timing is to advanced would like it to be 12* OR so with total of 36* tops.my car has never pinged either 94 octane with a couple of gallons of race fuel for good measure.

I'm going to install another MSD dizzy later to night when the kids are in bed, I've kept repeating that I'm going to burn the piece of SH&T.

MSD tech support are the one's that suggested it was cam walk.But something is funky going on.

thanks for your input.

69 Z/28 Hugger Orange/Deluxe/comfort weave interior / #'s matching ,nut & bolt restoration

69 Z/28 10 10 car,Original look with a few upgrades, Zl1, TKO 600,Currently in the works.

7o Z/28 Mulsanne blue, Original drive train,4:10,4-speed,standard steering,one owner, Canadain documented car.
simer341 is offline  
post #6 of 51 (permalink) Old Jun 18th, 11, 07:29 PM
Senior Tech
Alan
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: SoCal
Posts: 3,903
Re: Timing issues, is it cam walk??

Why did you lock out the vac advance? They are put there for a reason. It might very well be affecting your drivability issues. If you do opt to unlock the vac advance, make sure the can is the right one. I believe it is the VC1810 B28 can.


alan
alanrw is offline  
post #7 of 51 (permalink) Old Jun 18th, 11, 07:53 PM Thread Starter
Gold Lifetime Member
Randy
 
simer341's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Ontario
Posts: 65
Re: Timing issues, is it cam walk??

Hey Alan,

I initially I did run with the vac advance and when the timing kept jumping up I thought I would eliminate something and the vacuum advance was the first.Going to leave it on the new dizzy.

Question for you? how do I know what the right can is ?

thanks for your input.

69 Z/28 Hugger Orange/Deluxe/comfort weave interior / #'s matching ,nut & bolt restoration

69 Z/28 10 10 car,Original look with a few upgrades, Zl1, TKO 600,Currently in the works.

7o Z/28 Mulsanne blue, Original drive train,4:10,4-speed,standard steering,one owner, Canadain documented car.
simer341 is offline  
post #8 of 51 (permalink) Old Jun 18th, 11, 10:33 PM
Senior Tech
Steps
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 13,316
Re: Timing issues, is it cam walk??

Quote:
when I thought, that somethings 40 yrs old maybe worth updating and may provide better driveablity
There are threads after threads on radiators, cooling, starters, even brake "upgrades" where people "thought"
40 yr old technology was "ok we will need to build it this strong/big/ whatever....BUT we NEED it to last and not break, other wise Nander is going to have our previbials again, and the insurance companies screw us"
So they decided what was needed and trebled it.
Then the after market companies came along and thought..."theres a heap of goulble idiots out there"...lets market these 'remake the wheel" give these part fancy names like blaster, patriot...put out some propaganda leftets, and we can make a fortune....
And they have.
AC Delco spent millions on research, machining products that still work just as well today...ok a few bushes replaced.....can live with that.

Now to top it all off, instead of using the skills and machining of a few decades ago, these adftermarket companies decide that they have the goulable idiot market in their pockets...so now they can fire all their skilled workers, close their factories and contract the manufacture of these parts to China.

But hey...the proganda worked /works...a blaster msd sounds better than a stock points or stock HEI right.....good bragging rights.
on the other hand a bright red blaster msd unit just doesnt fit the over all layout of an engine bay....it stands out like a spare P.. at a pros wedding.

There are a couple current threads discussing the difference between the early pre pollution dizzy curves and VA units and moder curves, why they are incompatable...do run but lot of potentual never reached....and how to mod them

Think about this "we " Chevy ppl..except those in the know, mock our old 1970s 4 pin HEI moduals
on the other hand the dodge guys and circuit racing big bike multi cylnder high rpm guys love them as performance moduls.

Dont right off 40 yr old US made over built technology...thats like obsoleting the wheel just cause the technology has be around for a while...

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Steptoe is offline  
post #9 of 51 (permalink) Old Jun 18th, 11, 10:43 PM
Senior Tech
Alan
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: SoCal
Posts: 3,903
Re: Timing issues, is it cam walk??

Quote:
Originally Posted by simer341 View Post
Hey Alan,

I initially I did run with the vac advance and when the timing kept jumping up I thought I would eliminate something and the vacuum advance was the first.Going to leave it on the new dizzy.

Question for you? how do I know what the right can is ?

thanks for your input.
Try this article:

http://www.corvette-restoration.com/...c_Adv_Spec.pdf

as well as this one:

http://www.corvette-restoration.com/.../Timing101.pdf

and these for general reference:
http://www.corvette-restoration.com/...o_articles.htm

I tried a couple of different cans until I got my Z to run right.

HTH

alan
alanrw is offline  
post #10 of 51 (permalink) Old Jun 19th, 11, 12:49 PM Thread Starter
Gold Lifetime Member
Randy
 
simer341's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Ontario
Posts: 65
Re: Timing issues, is it cam walk??

Thank you very much Alan,

It was a excellent read, very helpful and made a lot of sense too.I have printed it off to keep, I never seem to find that good stuff.



Worked on the car late last night took it out at around 2:00AM (live in the country so no close neighbors ) and car ran awsome from mid-range into top end.It pulled like never before,I allways had way to much timing.Now total is set at 38* all in, and just have too play around to raise initial. I will have try another vc can, I have a B26 rightnow,going to try a B28 then compare results.


Randy

69 Z/28 Hugger Orange/Deluxe/comfort weave interior / #'s matching ,nut & bolt restoration

69 Z/28 10 10 car,Original look with a few upgrades, Zl1, TKO 600,Currently in the works.

7o Z/28 Mulsanne blue, Original drive train,4:10,4-speed,standard steering,one owner, Canadain documented car.
simer341 is offline  
post #11 of 51 (permalink) Old Jun 19th, 11, 09:31 PM
Senior Tech
darrell
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: texas
Posts: 1,202
Re: Timing issues, is it cam walk??

didnt read all the threads but 38 total is still too much to me--36 total unless your all out racing and then i wouldnt--35 power valve and adjust idle with vac gauge--with your cam-a 4 corner idle cicuit would work best
97Z4C is offline  
post #12 of 51 (permalink) Old Jun 20th, 11, 04:57 PM Thread Starter
Gold Lifetime Member
Randy
 
simer341's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Ontario
Posts: 65
Re: Timing issues, is it cam walk??

hi Darrell,
thanks for your advice,Between the timing tape and large tab with big fat markings on the cover, I don't think I'm as accurate as I could be. I have to start back to basic's with carb adjustments,timing,and proper vacuum can. making note's and some plug reading.

So far as always, this site is a wealth of knowledge and with the right direction and some research I will have the car running perfectly,just time right now is tight and lots on the go but will post results.

Going to put back original carb, read a post on setting up the transfer slots,and to use feeler gauges .020 was recommended, but not sure how they measured that, also said that the transfer slot should make a perfect square.If that is the case I had a large rectangle which would had been way out.

69 Z/28 Hugger Orange/Deluxe/comfort weave interior / #'s matching ,nut & bolt restoration

69 Z/28 10 10 car,Original look with a few upgrades, Zl1, TKO 600,Currently in the works.

7o Z/28 Mulsanne blue, Original drive train,4:10,4-speed,standard steering,one owner, Canadain documented car.
simer341 is offline  
post #13 of 51 (permalink) Old Jun 21st, 11, 08:59 AM
Gold Lifetime Member
Mickey
 
Moonpie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Mesquite Texas
Posts: 2,151
Re: Timing issues, is it cam walk??

Sounds like you're headed in the right direction. Take heart. My first Camaro took me 6 months to get it all wrung out. When I did though it was hellfire on wheels.
Moonpie is offline  
post #14 of 51 (permalink) Old Jun 21st, 11, 07:37 PM Thread Starter
Gold Lifetime Member
Randy
 
simer341's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Ontario
Posts: 65
Re: Timing issues, is it cam walk??

Many thanks Mickey.

69 Z/28 Hugger Orange/Deluxe/comfort weave interior / #'s matching ,nut & bolt restoration

69 Z/28 10 10 car,Original look with a few upgrades, Zl1, TKO 600,Currently in the works.

7o Z/28 Mulsanne blue, Original drive train,4:10,4-speed,standard steering,one owner, Canadain documented car.
simer341 is offline  
post #15 of 51 (permalink) Old Jun 21st, 11, 10:06 PM
Senior Tech
Alan
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: SoCal
Posts: 3,903
Re: Timing issues, is it cam walk??

The truth is there is more information today on these cars than there was in 1969. Back then, all I had was the factory manual. Didn't have a clue how it all worked together, vacuum advance, transfer slots, cent. advance. Today, there is such a wealth of information to get these cars running right.

alan
alanrw is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Team Camaro Tech forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address.
NOTE we receive a lot of registrations with bad email addresses. IF you do not receive your confirmation email you will not be able to post. contact support and we will try and help.
Be sure you enter a valid email address and check your spam folder as well.



Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome