Really soft brakes - Team Camaro Tech
Troubleshooting Diagnosing problems done here.

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 8 (permalink) Old Jun 21st, 01, 07:49 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Wilmington Ca.
Posts: 23
Post

I was wondering if any suggestions

I have a 68 that sat for at least 5 years before I bought it. The first time I drove it I decided the "what?" brakes needed some work.

I have bleed them a few times, installed new flex hoses and new "solo-bleeder" bleeder screws by Earls, checked out the brake cylinders, got new pad and turned the rotors.
And still the brakes are very soft, even after repeated pumps.

What gives?

it is manual drums all around, and a few times during bleeding the pedal did appear to firm up a little bit, but thats the only time.

------------------
68 Camaro coupe, 350/PG/10.2rear--soon 383/200r4/10.5;3.73!!!
Ramonchis is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 8 (permalink) Old Jun 21st, 01, 09:35 PM
Tech Team
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: CA SF Bay Area
Posts: 94
Post

I have had bad luck with brakes too. On my '73 I found there was no way they would bleed properly with a pumping technique. I tried solo bleeders (russell). The problem is there is no check valve in the Master Cylinder, and when you release the brake pedal it sucks air back in, past the slave cylinder seals. The only way I got a good bleed was to use a VACUUM bleeder. This is a vacuum pump with a resevoir to hold fluid. The trick is you have to put teflon tape on the bleeder valves, otherwise it sucks air past these giving you a stream of bubbles. You have to get rid of the solo bleeder valves too, just use regular ones. The other thing that would probably work is pressure bleeding, but I don't have that equipment. I had a shop do it, but because the MC was bad, it didn't last. But even after replacing the MC it would not bleed properly except vacuum method.


------------------
-ibjoe
now: '73 LT; '79 Z28
then: '67 coupe; '88 IROC; '95 Z28
ibjoe is offline  
post #3 of 8 (permalink) Old Jun 22nd, 01, 05:42 AM
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 151
Post

is it possible you're just not used to manual brakes? i know when i started driving my 68 i found it very hard to stop it until i got used to doing the work myself
lola68rag is offline  
 
post #4 of 8 (permalink) Old Jun 22nd, 01, 06:26 AM
Moderator
Kevin
 
KevinW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Millstone, NJ
Posts: 11,181
Post

Ramonchis, have you checked on the adjusters? If the adjusters are not doing what they should, it feels like a soft pedal. I had that problem on mine, 4 drums, and it was WHOA....STOP! Did not have to bleed them, I just cleaned the pads real good with brake cleaner, cleaned and greased the adjusters. You have to make sure the adjusters put the pads REAL close to the drums. Then do the back up procedure to finish the job. Worked for mine!

Kevin


------------------
69' SS-350 Convert, M20, 3.55 posi. Totally Disassembled & in boxes (I'm working on it!)
69'(Hugger Orange -originally, Burgundy now) Z-21 Convert 327/PG, Driver
KevinW is offline  
post #5 of 8 (permalink) Old Jun 22nd, 01, 06:24 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Wilmington Ca.
Posts: 23
Post

ibjoe

I have a vacum bleeder but I was not getting any better results, although now that you mention using teflon tape I will give that a shot, it had occured to me that it would help the Earl's solo bleeders earlier today;they are a little diffrent than the Russell ones.
How can I tell if my MC has a check valve?

lola68rag

I am very used to manual brakes, my daily driven 69 chevelle has the same set up, I always jerk to a stop when ever I drive my girlfriends corolla. I still think it's funny, she doesn't.


KevinW
by "backup procedure" are you refering to the adjuster wheel and clearance between the pads and drums or to drive in reverse and brake to ajust the brakes?

I am still tinkering with something else so I can't just yet drive the car, but as soon as I can I will try to get a feel for the brakes.

I will probaly be a couple of weeks before I give this particular problem another crack, I am a little busy with finding a job.

Thank for the help I will post any developments.

------------------
68 Camaro coupe, 350/PG/10.2rear--soon 383/200r4/10.5;3.73!!!
Ramonchis is offline  
post #6 of 8 (permalink) Old Jun 23rd, 01, 05:23 AM
Tech Team
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: CA SF Bay Area
Posts: 94
Post

Ramonchis,
KevinW's comments are very right, do make sure they are adjusted right. What I do is tighten up the adjusters until the wheel locks, than back off for slight drag. You have to make a tool from a coat hanger to pull the adjuster lever away from the star wheel. Make sure you can do that before you tighten it up too much! That you can turn the star wheel both ways. The problem with the Russel bleeders is that they needed too much pressure (vacuum in this case) to activate. By the time the vacuum got that high it was trying to suck air from the bleeder valve connection and the bleeder valve threads, not to mention the wheel cylinder seals. I've see pictures of the Earl valve, looks like it has a spring, if the tension is not too tight it probably would not hurt. But I found those valve to be more of a problem than a solution. It is easy to make a one way valve for manual bleeding, just take a length of rubber tubing, block one end, cut a slit about half way through near that blocked end. Put it on the bleeder with the slit end in a can with brake fluid above the level of the slit. When you press the brakes with the bleeder open the fluid pushes past the slit, but when you return stroke the slit closes. Works better than the "one man bleeder" kits you can buy at the local car store, usually those need too much pressure if they work at all. For me, the ONLY way that worked was vacuum bleeding, if I tried "pump" bleeding after sucessful vacuum bleeding the pedal would get soft again! The KEY is too use lots of that teflon tape on the bleeder threads, otherwise it WILL suck air past and you will always see bubbles, though they are "fake", from the threads not the system. But I don't want to see ANY DARM BUBBLES! I'm not sure what year they did away with check valves in Camaro master cyclinders, your '68 may still have them. An economy move I guess, but it makes bleeding a LOT harder. I even went to far as to install an aftermarket check valve ("blue" for drum brakes), but it is not really needed once the system is working properly, so I took it back out. Didn't make a difference, as far as I can tell. The back brakes still don't work as hard as they should, it is that stupid "proportioning valve", but I don't think you have one, because you are 4-way drum. Best of luck with the car, and best of luck getting the brakes working right, as bad brakes can "break" your car.

------------------
-ibjoe
now: '73 LT; '79 Z28
then: '67 coupe; '88 IROC; '95 Z28

[This message has been edited by ibjoe (edited 06-26-2001).]
ibjoe is offline  
post #7 of 8 (permalink) Old Jun 25th, 01, 02:21 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Wilmington Ca.
Posts: 23
Post

Thanks for the clarification IBJOE.
I am still thinking about what I will doing next time I get the time. I at least now have a few things I will be addressing.

------------------
68 Camaro coupe, 350/PG/10.2rear--soon 383/200r4/10.5;3.73!!!
Ramonchis is offline  
post #8 of 8 (permalink) Old Jun 26th, 01, 04:09 PM
Moderator
Kevin
 
KevinW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Millstone, NJ
Posts: 11,181
Post

Ramonchis, Yes the backup procedure is to forcefully apply the brakes while backing. Of course, this is after you adjust them they way Joe described. That adjusts it that last little bit. Also do it as the pads wear. Let us know how you made out.

Kevin


------------------
69' SS-350 Convert, M20, 3.55 posi. Totally Disassembled & in boxes (I'm working on it!)
69'(Hugger Orange -originally, Burgundy now) Z-21 Convert 327/PG, Driver
KevinW is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Team Camaro Tech forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address.
NOTE we receive a lot of registrations with bad email addresses. IF you do not receive your confirmation email you will not be able to post. contact support and we will try and help.
Be sure you enter a valid email address and check your spam folder as well.



Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome