Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot - Page 2 - Team Camaro Tech
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post #16 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 1st, 11, 06:58 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Took the whole carb apart again tonight and washed it out with CLR. Didn't really see anything idicative of plugged passages but if nothing else I got to study it quite a bit and see which passages go where. I noticed the jets have 3 digit numbers on them. They are 215 on the primaries and 255 on the secondaries. Anybody familiar with 3 digit jets?

Will put it all back together and get it running on the weekend. Then try these three tests:
1) plug of PCV
2) disconnect secondaries
If neither of those helps, 3) leave secondaries disconnected and put secondary (larger) jets on the primary side to see what happens.

Better check the float level again too. Too low could cause leaning out I guess.

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

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post #17 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 2nd, 11, 12:08 PM
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Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Mine was real sensive to float level.
I will have a look in my box of holley jets on those numbers

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post #18 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 2nd, 11, 12:19 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

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Originally Posted by Steptoe View Post
Mine was real sensive to float level.
I will have a look in my box of holley jets on those numbers
Yeah, I am thinking those jet numbers cross to maybe weber carbs or some other mfgr that uses 3 digits. Would be good to know if compatible jets are available.

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

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post #19 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 2nd, 11, 09:11 PM
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Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Nah non in my box of holley bits...this goes back quite a few yrs, BUT
Quote:
maybe weber carbs or some other mfgr that uses 3 digits.
That rings a bell.. I had a heap of SU stuff around back then.

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post #20 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 3rd, 11, 04:02 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Well, it's back together and running again. The two things I improved were 1) made sure the passages below the power valve were clean and the power valve itself had full travel below the jet. There was some sediment in the plunger recess. 2) raised the float level considerably. My suspicion is that the float level made the greatest improvement. I think Steps was right about that.

So just went for a short drive around the block after warming it up in the driveway. It's dark, 30 degrees F and there's way too many cars on the streets for much horsing around but it is GREATLY improved. It still has a slight flat spot on the primaries but when I boot it from a roll in first gear IT BREAKS LOOSE ALL OVER THE PLACE!!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE IT !! Neither of my Qjets have ever been this responsive. I was giggling when I put it back in the garage.

I'll get a drive in tomorrow morning early. Hopefully an economy run if I can keep my foot out of it.

Here's some photos of what the guts of this thing look like. The primary/secondary jets are located lower than the power valve which is the large jet in the photos. So that may have been why the float level adjustment is so important. The thing coming out the front wall is the needle/seat and the hole below it is plugged but looks open in the photos because of the shadow.


This photo shows the plunger attached to the top of the carb that is vac activated to push down and open the power valve.


This is the acc pump. Shaft is plastic. You can still get this part from Holley or Jegs/summit but a new diaphragm (red part) is included in the rebuild kit. I had to email Holley and ask about that and they were helpful.


I think I am going to buy every one of these $5 Economasters I can find at swap meets and horde them. $55 for the rebuild kit. Not a bad deal for the $$ and time spent.

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

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post #21 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 4th, 11, 08:14 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Just did 107 highway miles this morning. Car ran great for all of it. Speeds were 70-75 mph for most of it. 70 mph in my car is ~2,550 rpm because of the 2.73 rear gear. I tried to keep my foot out of the secondaries for most of it. At 70 mph the Innovate A/F LM-1 meter is telling me about 16.2:1. A little slower, ~65 mph, the A/F ratio is down in the high 15's.

And the gas mileage result?....(drumroll).....

18mpg on this trip. Hmm. My JET Performance Stage 1 Qjet still holds the record with 20mpg on the same highway run. However, the mechanical secondaries on this Holley 450 make it real fun to drive when you put your foot in it. Even on the highway the acceleration from 65 up to 95 mph or so in 4rth gear is fantastic and you can drop just about anybody with the twitch of a toe. The lean stumble at mid-travel on the primaries is barely noticable now, I believe due to the raised float level. I don't think I'll put too much more time into tuning it in the near future. Probably move onto my disc brake/sway bar swap next.

So, what have we learned?
1) Carbs are fun to mess with! (Although the wife doesn't much like them disassembled all over the dining room table.)
2) A well tuned Holley Economaster 450cfm is a darn good little carb for a mild, small displacement engine like mine. The thing fires on the first whirl and idles smooth as a rock. It does tend to run out of smoke about 5k rpms but that's not much of a problem for the kind of driving I typically do.
3) NO parts are available for Holley Economasters (model 4360) except for a rebuild kit and accelerator pump from Holley, Jegs or Summit. Rebuld kit is Holley p/n 37-1540. Acc pump p/n is 135-1. Search "Holley 37-1540" or "135-1"on their sites.
4) Mechanical secondaries are more responsive and hence more fun to drive than vac secondaries.
5) As much as I like Qjets, the ultimate carb for a mild-street 327 like mine may be a somewhat larger cfm mechanical secondary Holley, maybe somewhere between 500-600cfm but jetted down. I know you can get a 600cfm double pumper, just not sure about smaller. Maybe I'll try that when the a deal comes along. Meanwhile, the Economaster stays for now.

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

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post #22 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 4th, 11, 11:11 AM
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Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Quote:
I think Steps was right about that.
I take no credit, u just jogged my memory form 20 odd yrs ago.

Quote:
lat spot on the primaries
Check accel pump????
Quote:
but when I boot it from a roll in first gear IT BREAKS LOOSE ALL OVER THE PLACE!!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE IT !!
And u are running 277 rear gears.....thats the difference of a small carb working in its rpm range down low...people normally have no idea just how sensitive carbs are to their rpm range.....how many ppl build their tweaked up engines with a 600 or 850, whatever....then drop a small carb on and see what happens on the street?
I know 2 Tom and I.

Quote:
I tried to keep my foot out of the secondaries for most of it. At 70 mph the Innovate A/F LM-1 meter is telling me about 16.2:1. A little slower, ~65 mph, the A/F ratio is down in the high 15's.............18mpg on this trip. Hmm. My JET Performance Stage 1 Qjet still holds the record with 20mpg on the same highway run.
16.2 and drops to 15s at lower speed.....something is wrong...the higher speed u do the more resistance on the car , the more throttle to cruise the richer it gets.
Mine 60mph is 2100 rpms (calcuated, and speedo etc)
Once I hit around the 1700/1800 rpms I start to richen 1 full point.

Also 16 is the high end for petrol....but lets leave that there for now....
The mixtures between the 2 carbs different at the 70 cruise...if so the engine is loaded the same, leaner mixter therfore will require a little more advance at cruise at that rpms.
Rem the cent is not all in and u are reliing on the VA for that extra advance.

Quote:
The lean stumble at mid-travel on the primaries is barely noticable now
,
I think u will find that could also be in the accel pump.

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post #23 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 5th, 11, 10:15 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

On the accel pump, I did increase the travel on the first driving test but really didn't notice any change in behaviour. Right now I probably have it set to deliver greater travel than the 7/16" called out in the rebuild kit docs. I could reduce the travel, but I think that might be going in the wrong direction. Since the flat spot is not noticeable when the choke is on, it would seem richer is the way to go.

The 16.2 A/F at 70 mph (~2550 rpms) may be directly related to that point in the primaries' travel where the (now minor) flat spot is exhibiting itself.

Test ideas:
- could still raise the float level a bit more
- could still do a test with the PCV disconnected. (PCV is a vac leak after all)
- could still disconnect secondaries to see if the lean spot is occurring just where the secondaries are beginning to crack open.

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

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post #24 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 5th, 11, 11:27 AM
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Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Quote:
greater travel than the 7/16" called out in the rebuild kit docs. I could reduce the travel, but I think that might be going in the wrong direction. Since the flat spot is not noticeable when the choke is on, it would seem richer is the way to go.

The 16.2 A/F at 70 mph (~2550 rpms) may be directly related to that point in the primaries' travel where the (now minor) flat spot is exhibiting itself.
I think it is all related back to the primaries being over lean to begin with...get the AF back down to mid 15s.

this 16 is rather high..the enginew should be running slightly warmer than normal on the gauge.......even with stock cooling system...and relates to the lower mpg.

You do know that if u have the slightest misfire..may not even be able to tell.....then the O2 goes lean...about .5 to 1 afr.
just keep that in the back of your mind for now

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post #25 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 5th, 11, 12:17 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

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Originally Posted by Steptoe View Post
I think it is all related back to the primaries being over lean to begin with...get the AF back down to mid 15s.

this 16 is rather high..the enginew should be running slightly warmer than normal on the gauge.......even with stock cooling system...and relates to the lower mpg.

You do know that if u have the slightest misfire..may not even be able to tell.....then the O2 goes lean...about .5 to 1 afr.
just keep that in the back of your mind for now
Steps, I've run with the Qjet up to 18:1 (not running well, mind you). At that time (not winter but don't remember exactly) I noticed a temp increase; no noticable T increase here going down the highway on a below freezing late-fall morning at 16:2.

Don't believe I have any misfires but good to know.

Sidenote, how did you attach the baseplate of the Holley to the Impco carb? That's some serious DIY engineering, Sir.
Are they similar to begin with?

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

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post #26 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 5th, 11, 02:41 PM
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Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Quote:
Holley to the Impco carb? That's some serious DIY engineering, Sir
1/ love it when ppl get my name right lol
2/ yeah real serious...just make sure on has the correct gaskets...best to make your own...and simply bolts up....and so does the Q jet base which /im currently running on the new impco lol
18:1 petrol will not ignite ...17:1 petrol will ignite but not burn well very slow getting into exhaust valve open while still burning terrortory...hence lot more fuel for same power (cruise rem) 16 to 17:1 getting marginal 15 to low 16 nice burn but slower..hence more advance...thats where the VA comes in. 15.5 to 16...good economy.
And rem u are cruising in the upper 2K rpms so the cent is not all in....thats where another 10 to 12 VA degs kicks in....make sure the VA is all in at the 75mph cruise engine vacuum.

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post #27 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 5th, 11, 02:47 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steptoe View Post
1/ love it when ppl get my name right lol
2/ yeah real serious...just make sure on has the correct gaskets...best to make your own...and simply bolts up....and so does the Q jet base which /im currently running on the new impco lol
18:1 petrol will not ignite ...17:1 petrol will ignite but not burn well very slow getting into exhaust valve open while still burning terrortory...hence lot more fuel for same power (cruise rem) 16 to 17:1 getting marginal 15 to low 16 nice burn but slower..hence more advance...thats where the VA comes in. 15.5 to 16...good economy.
And rem u are cruising in the upper 2K rpms so the cent is not all in....thats where another 10 to 12 VA degs kicks in....make sure the VA is all in at the 75mph cruise engine vacuum.
Have to check one of my Edelbrock tech papers when I get home. Seem to recall that they said 20 something:1 was the lean limit.

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

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post #28 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 5th, 11, 07:14 PM
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Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

20.9 is per atmoshere....so if u let the car sit over night, turn on and heat up the 02 sensor and it reads 20.9 u know it is still calibrated.
Even so do not confuse flamabity with exposivabily ratios.
And the ranges depend on pressure, temp and concentration
Then detonation comes into the equation...

u have a knock sensor bolted to the block somewhere.....?
With that u can get good lean cruise and advance with out fear of inaudable detonation
And MAPI sensor hooked into the manifold vaccuum...
Then have those and RPM all graphed up on the logworks....THEN u can definately see where u are going .

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post #29 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 5th, 11, 07:18 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose RS View Post
Have to check one of my Edelbrock tech papers when I get home. Seem to recall that they said 20 something:1 was the lean limit.
Page 2 is what I am referring to. A/F ratio and characteristics chart.
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_...ers_manual.pdf

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

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post #30 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 5th, 11, 10:12 PM
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Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

yeah see what u mean the 20 to 25 afr.....
Either the author doesnt know what thwe hell he is talking about... or they are talking about something complelet different
like I said the atmoshere is 20.9 to get any higher one needs to take the air and inject O2 into it...never mind about diluting it with burnt fuel gases
That graph is pretty right but not the cruise at 4000 + looks like a bloody desk jockt drew it up and never had a o2 in a car...when one gets up to those cruise speeds that throttle is getting down, engine vac has droped and the AF dropped way off

Sry m8...I see this sort of thing so often...even if a deskjockey with a string of PHds after his name...he just has not thought it thru.

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