Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot - Page 3 - Team Camaro Tech
Troubleshooting Diagnosing problems done here.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #31 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 5th, 11, 11:10 PM
Senior Tech
Steiner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Lyman, SC
Posts: 8,348
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

O2 is 20.9% of air by volume.
AFR meters read by mass.
Several manufacturers (Japanese mainly) have built "lean burn" engines over the years that can operate at 22-25:1 AFR.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

'69 Camaro Beater-SFT 327-M20-Moser 4.10-sold
'02 Z/28 vert-stock-sold and totaled
Steiner is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 6th, 11, 12:31 PM
Senior Tech
Steps
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 13,316
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Yeah pont taken....
But from memory O2 is still about 22 or 23 % by mass.
And a wideband O2 sensor starting around 19 afr and espec around the 20 and above is inaccrurate and at the limits of its range anyway.
And get into lean ranges in our engines above 16 to 16.5 we have burnt valves melted pistons and detonation.
Which still leaves the orginal comment.

Note When one works with OH, lpg , cng one is working in far higher afr than petrol
petrol is 14.6 14.7 lpg is 15.7 and by nature is able to run far leaner mixtures than petrol....ie petrol burn valves etc 2 piots up from 14.7 lpg 2.5 to little over 3 before heat and detonation takes place...and NOx emissions start to be an issue.

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Steptoe is offline  
post #33 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 11th, 11, 09:10 AM Thread Starter
Gold Lifetime Member
Tom
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: the 02176
Posts: 5,971
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose RS View Post
Took the whole carb apart again tonight and washed it out with CLR. Didn't really see anything idicative of plugged passages but if nothing else I got to study it quite a bit and see which passages go where. I noticed the jets have 3 digit numbers on them. They are 215 on the primaries and 255 on the secondaries. Anybody familiar with 3 digit jets?

Will put it all back together and get it running on the weekend. Then try these three tests:
1) plug of PCV
2) disconnect secondaries
If neither of those helps, 3) leave secondaries disconnected and put secondary (larger) jets on the primary side to see what happens.

Better check the float level again too. Too low could cause leaning out I guess.

Did some additional troubleshooting to work on the flat spot on the primaries again.
1) Disconnected secondary linkage. Surprisingly the car ran almost the same. I think the secondaries could still be tipping in at WOT even though the linkage is disconnected. I didn't wire them shut.
2) Blocked off PCV. No change other than lower idle; no surprise there.

I think I will raise the float level farther to see if that helps because that seems to be the one thing that has improved the flat (lean) spot in the primaries to this point.

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Melrose RS is offline  
 
post #34 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 11th, 11, 11:20 AM
Senior Tech
Steps
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 13,316
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

yeah the float is a easy check worth a go.
But I still come back to that very lean cruise.
When one stomps on it, the pump supllies a shot to ricnen up very quick, but if for that instant the cruise is very lean, and the sec supply is still moving its way past the valves....
I had a hell mof an issue a few years back on the PLG...very different setup metering ...and doesnt have jets..doen with levers in the converter....but it boiled down to a very similar issue...too lean cruise
The same issue can arise in lpg systems with to long feed hose between converter and mixer...momentary delay before the good rich mixture hits...

I think with the lean cruises a 'patch fix' could be adjust the pump shot...but patch fixes always end up being a long term headache popping up further down the line.

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Steptoe is offline  
post #35 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 18th, 11, 10:00 AM Thread Starter
Gold Lifetime Member
Tom
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: the 02176
Posts: 5,971
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose RS View Post
Took the whole carb apart again tonight and washed it out with CLR. Didn't really see anything idicative of plugged passages but if nothing else I got to study it quite a bit and see which passages go where. I noticed the jets have 3 digit numbers on them. They are 215 on the primaries and 255 on the secondaries. Anybody familiar with 3 digit jets?

Will put it all back together and get it running on the weekend. Then try these three tests:
1) plug of PCV
2) disconnect secondaries
If neither of those helps, 3) leave secondaries disconnected and put secondary (larger) jets on the primary side to see what happens.

Better check the float level again too. Too low could cause leaning out I guess.

First, correction to the above post. The jets on the primary side are marked "215" and are .046". The secondaries are marked "550" and are .077".

I swapped the larger jets into the primarys for a test. The A/F meter said 9:1 and I barely made it around the block. Car was running too poorly to tell anything about the lean spot in the primaries. Set it back normal with slightly higher float level and that seemed to help again. Not sure how much higher I can go there.

I have tried to learn something about the jets in this carb and all I can find on the internet is one mention that "they are metric". I would think they would cross with something...motorcyle? Snowmobile? Weed wacker? I guess I'll have to get another carb for parts and drill the primary jets slightly larger. Any jet wizards have comment on this?

Many of you probably think it's not worth the effort but it actually runs like it's fuel injected except for this lean flat spot. And I am having fun with it. I'll either become the foremost living authority on these Economasters or lose my mind trying.

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Melrose RS is offline  
post #36 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 18th, 11, 01:03 PM
Senior Tech
Steps
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 13,316
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Quote:
Any jet wizards have comment on this?
I rem on old comment made by a holley expert yrs ago...I spent a lot of timelisting to those who know stuff...numbers on holly jets dont always relate to diameter but rather flow, and things like things champhers and position change how the fliuds flow thru them.

Quote:
but it actually runs like it's fuel injected except for this lean flat spot
yeah..that because most of your rpm range is in the effective range of the carb....
Which then gives the engine a very fun response in that rpm range....
Thats why with my engine, cam , carb, manifolds valley cover, all down low is so bloody economical plus in that rpm range 1200 to 5000 its so responsive....damp road, forget pulling out into a smallish gap in trafics, and take off normal at a interection, cars are why behind, if damp rear wheels break away.

I have been thru all my old boxes looking for jets but non for that carb...yes I understood what u meant in the 1st post.
Just had a thought thu, will check out a local speed /workshop guy he may have old stock/ bits.

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Steptoe is offline  
post #37 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 18th, 11, 01:48 PM Thread Starter
Gold Lifetime Member
Tom
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: the 02176
Posts: 5,971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steptoe View Post
I rem on old comment made by a holley expert yrs ago...I spent a lot of timelisting to those who know stuff...numbers on holly jets dont always relate to diameter but rather flow, and things like things champhers and position change how the fliuds flow thru them.


I have been thru all my old boxes looking for jets but non for that carb...yes I understood what u meant in the 1st post.
Just had a thought thu, will check out a local speed /workshop guy he may have old stock/ bits.
Thanks, Steps. I looked into Holley jet info and found similar data. Thanks for trying with the local guy. Ive seen a guy mentioned here in Colorado who knows these carbs but cant find any email address, not sure he's still in business.


Sent from my iPhone using Autoguide

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Melrose RS is offline  
post #38 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 18th, 11, 04:00 PM
Senior Tech
Steps
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 13,316
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Quote:
Thanks for trying with the local guy.
I havnt yet...will in the next couple days..this side of Xmas.

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Steptoe is offline  
post #39 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 21st, 11, 10:19 AM Thread Starter
Gold Lifetime Member
Tom
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: the 02176
Posts: 5,971
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

I contacted Holley regarding replacement jets and they confirmed they are metric thread but had none available. They recommended Daytona parts company who was helpful but had none remaining and they recommended Carbs Only www.carbsonly.com in CA. I emailed and later spoke with Carlos who confirms Weber 32 36 jets will work and so I'm buying a couple sets from him to work with. Even though the numbering on the Weber jets is different they are supposed to be the same in thread size/pitch. He was very helpful/knowledgeable so I am optimistic this will work out.

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Melrose RS; Dec 21st, 11 at 12:00 PM.
Melrose RS is offline  
post #40 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 21st, 11, 12:30 PM
Senior Tech
Steps
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 13,316
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Quote:
Carlos who confirms Weber 32 36 jets will work and so I'm buying a couple sets from him to work with. Even though the numbering on the Weber jets is different they are supposed to be the same in thread size/pitch.
lol Tharts damn near exactlty what I was told yesterday evening by the guys down at the shop....no they had a big clean out for a swap meet last feb and all that stuff went.
The suggested checking out a mazda rotary performace shop as those guys like webbers when not injecting.

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Steptoe is offline  
post #41 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 21st, 11, 12:40 PM Thread Starter
Gold Lifetime Member
Tom
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: the 02176
Posts: 5,971
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steptoe View Post
lol Tharts damn near exactlty what I was told yesterday evening by the guys down at the shop....no they had a big clean out for a swap meet last feb and all that stuff went.
The suggested checking out a mazda rotary performace shop as those guys like webbers when not injecting.
Well thanks anyway. But if this works out as we expect, jets are pretty easy to come by. I even found an explanation of the differing 3 digit numbering systems and a cross ref chart that I'll post later. It should be all downhill from here.

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Melrose RS is offline  
post #42 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 23rd, 11, 03:53 AM
Senior Tech
Scott
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: CT
Posts: 7,275
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Call Carbs-R-Us in Thomaston, CT. Been around for years, maybe they have some stuff hanging around.
Sauron67MM is offline  
post #43 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 25th, 11, 11:25 PM
Senior Tech
john
 
wagonman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: northern california
Posts: 2,796
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

I ran this exact carb in high school on my 283 4 speed nova!

I loved the clean idle and responsive throttle.It would run the bowls dry on a long pull.It has a divorced choke for stock appearance.

I kept it all these years.I will run it some day.

Thank for all the research!





Remember,I'm not making this stuff up!

1969 rs/ss 396 350hp/4spd conv a/c,pw,ps,foldown
1968 Z/28 crossram- j/l8 conv pw,ps,foldown
1963 nova ss 350/4spd conv a/c,ps,pt
1963 nova 400 4dr 6cyl/700r4 a/c
2006 GT/5spd mustang conv
wagonman is offline  
post #44 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 26th, 11, 01:48 PM Thread Starter
Gold Lifetime Member
Tom
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: the 02176
Posts: 5,971
Quote:
Originally Posted by wagonman View Post
I ran this exact carb in high school on my 283 4 speed nova!

I loved the clean idle and responsive throttle.It would run the bowls dry on a long pull.It has a divorced choke for stock appearance.

I kept it all these years.I will run it some day.

Thank for all the research!




John, since yours and mine have different list numbers but physically look the same i'd be curious to see what jets are in yours if you ever take it apart. Mine is list 7556.

I got the new jets in the mail xmas eve and will probably put some in Wednesday.


Sent from my iPhone using Autoguide

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Melrose RS is offline  
post #45 of 69 (permalink) Old Dec 26th, 11, 07:57 PM
Senior Tech
john
 
wagonman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: northern california
Posts: 2,796
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose RS View Post
John, since yours and mine have different list numbers but physically look the same i'd be curious to see what jets are in yours if you ever take it apart. Mine is list 7556.

I got the new jets in the mail xmas eve and will probably put some in Wednesday.


Sent from my iPhone using Autoguide
Maybe i can take a little looksie.

I think i put a gasket kit in this thing around 12-14 years ago.It still may be good to go.If i can take it apart without destroying a gasket i will attempt.

Remember,I'm not making this stuff up!

1969 rs/ss 396 350hp/4spd conv a/c,pw,ps,foldown
1968 Z/28 crossram- j/l8 conv pw,ps,foldown
1963 nova ss 350/4spd conv a/c,ps,pt
1963 nova 400 4dr 6cyl/700r4 a/c
2006 GT/5spd mustang conv
wagonman is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Team Camaro Tech forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address.
NOTE we receive a lot of registrations with bad email addresses. IF you do not receive your confirmation email you will not be able to post. contact support and we will try and help.
Be sure you enter a valid email address and check your spam folder as well.



Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome