Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot - Team Camaro Tech
Troubleshooting Diagnosing problems done here.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 69 (permalink) Old Nov 28th, 11, 08:24 AM Thread Starter
Gold Lifetime Member
Tom
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: the 02176
Posts: 5,971
Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Just bought and rebuilt by me for a gas mileage experiment on the 327. Idles as smooth as a rock, pulls an unwavering 17" of vacuum, but there is a huge flat spot right in the middle of the primaries' travel that is spiking the A/F ratio up above 20:1, causing a big stumble. Once you open the secondaries(mechanical) it takes off pretty good but that primary side is killing me.

There are 2 primary jets and 2 larger secondary jets and one large jet that I am not sure what it does.

I have almost $60 into this carburetor so I really want to get it sorted.

Problem #1, huge flat spot midway through primary travel.
Question #1, are jets for this the same as other holleys? I have nothing to compare to.
Question #2, is that large, centrally located jet a power valve of some sort?

Three things I've thought to try but have not tried yet:
1) disconnect PCV as this could cause a large enough vac leak to have it go lean in the primaries.
2) Adjust pump shot. Not sure if this will help as the take off is fine until I hit the mid-travel of the primaries. Should the acc pump even be needed at mid-travel?
3) Swap secondary jets into primary side to see if just being richer kills the flat spot?

I know the Holley economaster is kind of 'fringe', especially for this forum, and I've read about all I can find on the internet about them(which isn't much) but if anybody with experience with this carb can make suggestions I am willing to try. Thanks.

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Melrose RS is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 69 (permalink) Old Nov 28th, 11, 08:38 AM
DjD
Retired
Dennis
 
DjD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Fortuna, CA
Posts: 26,419
Garage
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

What manifold are you using?

...Dennis

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"Don't take life so serious, you won't get out alive..."
DjD is offline  
post #3 of 69 (permalink) Old Nov 28th, 11, 08:44 AM Thread Starter
Gold Lifetime Member
Tom
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: the 02176
Posts: 5,971
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Quote:
Originally Posted by DjD View Post
What manifold are you using?
Edelbrock performer. I've been using it for a while with Qjet carbs and just switched to this carb.

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Melrose RS is offline  
 
post #4 of 69 (permalink) Old Nov 28th, 11, 10:36 AM
DjD
Retired
Dennis
 
DjD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Fortuna, CA
Posts: 26,419
Garage
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

If a Q-jet worked on the manifold them your Economaster should as well. By mid throttle on the primaries you should have over come any rush of air the squiters would be needed to over come. To go lean like that suggests maybe you are running out of fuel on the primary side. Maybe remove the secondary linkage and see if the issue is actually with the primary side or if the secondary side is opening letting in air before it's fuel is flowing.

I've never worked on one but have never heard any good about this carb. Holley's attempt at a Q-Jet that never gained popularity. If you want a great small cfm Holley, I don't remember the list number but they make a 600cfm single inlet dual bowl spreadbore with vac sec's that is a great match on a 327. I know you don't want to eat the $$ you have in this carb though!

...Dennis

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"Don't take life so serious, you won't get out alive..."
DjD is offline  
post #5 of 69 (permalink) Old Nov 28th, 11, 10:55 AM Thread Starter
Gold Lifetime Member
Tom
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: the 02176
Posts: 5,971
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Quote:
Originally Posted by DjD View Post
If a Q-jet worked on the manifold them your Economaster should as well. By mid throttle on the primaries you should have over come any rush of air the squiters would be needed to over come. To go lean like that suggests maybe you are running out of fuel on the primary side. Maybe remove the secondary linkage and see if the issue is actually with the primary side or if the secondary side is opening letting in air before it's fuel is flowing.

I've never worked on one but have never heard any good about this carb. Holley's attempt at a Q-Jet that never gained popularity. If you want a great small cfm Holley, I don't remember the list number but they make a 600cfm single inlet dual bowl spreadbore with vac sec's that is a great match on a 327. I know you don't want to eat the $$ you have in this carb though!
Dennis, I also think the squirter shouldn't be an issue at mid-throttle. I did change the pump rod position for max travel and it didn't seem to make any difference. I haven't heard much good about this carb either but did run one back in the 80s on a buddy's 350 RS LT and it was quite responsive. No doubt the car would have been faster with a larger carb, though.

Trying to disable the secondaries is a good idea for a test. I've looked at it closely and I'm 90% sure the problem is all about the primaries but it's worth at try. What's really stumping me is the larger jet with a spring-loaded valve in the middle that seems to have passages that lead to below both the primary and secondary jets. I am not 100% certain these passages are clean/free flowing. Under what conditions should this jet operate assuming it mimicks a Holley power valve? I think I'll take it apart again and look into that. Thanks.

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Melrose RS is offline  
post #6 of 69 (permalink) Old Nov 28th, 11, 12:25 PM
Senior Tech
Steps
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 13,316
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

I used one back in the 80s on the current spread bore performer manifold...
I got it out of the box, had to lean off the primaries a little, thu it ran fine..but liitle rich.
From there was reliable as...could never understand the bad rap this carb got..always put down to people tu tuing with stuff they did not understand..I then used the base plate later on the Impco 465 till wore out the butterfly bushes about 1yr back...unfortunately the body ..everything went to the metal recylers couple months back .
I think you and Dennis are on the right track thu

Get it sorted and it is a very nice carb for your application.

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Steptoe is offline  
post #7 of 69 (permalink) Old Nov 28th, 11, 01:03 PM Thread Starter
Gold Lifetime Member
Tom
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: the 02176
Posts: 5,971
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Thanks, Steps.

Photo for reference.

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Melrose RS; Nov 28th, 11 at 01:38 PM.
Melrose RS is offline  
post #8 of 69 (permalink) Old Nov 28th, 11, 04:13 PM Thread Starter
Gold Lifetime Member
Tom
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: the 02176
Posts: 5,971
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

OK, I've figured out that the big 5th jet is indeed a power valve. Now to figure out what the correct operation should be...
It's part #34 on this exploded diagram and works with part#23.
http://www.carburetorfactory.com/expvw20.html


'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Melrose RS is offline  
post #9 of 69 (permalink) Old Nov 28th, 11, 09:21 PM
Senior Tech
Steps
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 13,316
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

I have been looking for one of my old holley books....in it it has jet powevalve cam etc etc for holley carbs and engine applicantions carbs
Covers several pages , columns etc, fairly fine print and from memory its about 10 pages in....it covers this carb towards the back..just over 2/4 of the way thru... at a guess it would be published about mid to late 80s??? I have not had it out for over 15yrs and cant find it.
Does the description ring a bell in any of your holley books?

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Steptoe is offline  
post #10 of 69 (permalink) Old Nov 29th, 11, 03:48 AM
Super Moderator
Bess-68's rule
 
Everett#2390's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Va Beach VA
Posts: 31,551
Garage
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Part 34: bottom spring keeps the middle plug in the upper jet.
Part 23: has a spring on the bottom of the upper piston.

As vacuum decreases, as in opening throttle (load), pushes the plug out the jet to add fuel before the main power circuit comes into play.
Spring rate on Part 23 determines the opening point, lighter spring, open sooner, ie, 12 inches of vac, heavy spring, open later, ie, 6 inches of vac.

Give a man a rescued dog for the health of both their souls. May 2017 ROTM Winner - Thank you!
'
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
CUBS - 2016 World Series Champions - maybe this year, 2019 ...
Everett#2390 is offline  
post #11 of 69 (permalink) Old Nov 29th, 11, 05:34 AM Thread Starter
Gold Lifetime Member
Tom
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: the 02176
Posts: 5,971
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Everett#2390 View Post
Part 34: bottom spring keeps the middle plug in the upper jet.
Part 23: has a spring on the bottom of the upper piston.

As vacuum decreases, as in opening throttle (load), pushes the plug out the jet to add fuel before the main power circuit comes into play.
Spring rate on Part 23 determines the opening point, lighter spring, open sooner, ie, 12 inches of vac, heavy spring, open later, ie, 6 inches of vac.
Thanks Everett, that is exactly the kind of logical explanation I was looking for. This thing is tiny, maybe the size of a standard holley jet, so could be tunable by changing the jet or drilling out. Do you know thread size of typical holley jets? The rebuild kit included all 3 new parts of #34.

Different springs for part #23 are not part of the rebuild kit and there is no trick kit for this carb so I'd have to get creative with the spring tensions but before that I think I will disassemble the whole thing and soak the body because I believe the jet and powervalve passages are somewhat calcified. I sprayed them but did not soak the body of the carb. I know NAPA sells carb cleaner by the gallon...what is the best to use for soaking it... the NAPA brand or some other?

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Melrose RS is offline  
post #12 of 69 (permalink) Old Nov 29th, 11, 06:46 AM
Super Moderator
Bess-68's rule
 
Everett#2390's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Va Beach VA
Posts: 31,551
Garage
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Actually, I have it wrong after reading my statement over and over again.
'Lesser vacuum indicated requires a weaker/lighter spring than a higher vacuum indicated.'

As far as spring rate goes, place two springs end-to-end on a pencil, steel rod, etc.
Then squeeze them together. The most compressed spring is the lighter spring of the two.

Give a man a rescued dog for the health of both their souls. May 2017 ROTM Winner - Thank you!
'
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
CUBS - 2016 World Series Champions - maybe this year, 2019 ...
Everett#2390 is offline  
post #13 of 69 (permalink) Old Nov 30th, 11, 07:51 AM Thread Starter
Gold Lifetime Member
Tom
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: the 02176
Posts: 5,971
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Well, I proved that the jets in this carb are not the same thread as QJet jets and I am told they are not the same as Holley jets either so there's not much chance of rejetting without drilling out. I wonder if Edelbrock jets could work? But that's not really a concern at this point...

Pretty sure now that most of the trouble is coming from aluminum corrosion/calcification build up in the passages below the power valve/fuel bowl/jets. Tried an experiment using CLR on an old, really cruddy Qjet last night and it really cleaned out the calcified passages well after soaking overnight so I'll try that on the Economaster next. I still think I can make a happy little carb out of this 450.

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Melrose RS; Nov 30th, 11 at 11:38 AM.
Melrose RS is offline  
post #14 of 69 (permalink) Old Nov 30th, 11, 11:41 AM
Senior Tech
Steps
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 13,316
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Carb bodies ..well most al alloy parts are cleaned up in a citric acid based bath and washed.
In the case of carbs they then get a caduim plating to prevent they alloy corroding in the future...which I believe that notoruios bad batch of corrosion in holly bowels was about.
I learnt the hard way yrs ago rebuilding old zenith carbs for my vintage cars...seemed as perpetually had crap in the bottom of the bowl... These are little single barrel....ends up itsonly 20 bucks more to get these rebuilt (36 hr turn around) than the cost of the kits.

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Steptoe is offline  
post #15 of 69 (permalink) Old Nov 30th, 11, 11:56 AM Thread Starter
Gold Lifetime Member
Tom
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: the 02176
Posts: 5,971
Re: Holley 450 cfm economaster troubleshoot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steptoe View Post
Carb bodies ..well most al alloy parts are cleaned up in a citric acid based bath and washed.
In the case of carbs they then get a caduim plating to prevent they alloy corroding in the future...which I believe that notoruios bad batch of corrosion in holly bowels was about.
I learnt the hard way yrs ago rebuilding old zenith carbs for my vintage cars...seemed as perpetually had crap in the bottom of the bowl... These are little single barrel....ends up itsonly 20 bucks more to get these rebuilt (36 hr turn around) than the cost of the kits.
If this cleanup doesn't work, I'll just have to keep searching the swap meets for more of these for parts. I inquired with one place yesterday about purchasing a body but they said no parts are available for these aside from the rebuild kits. Will know better if I get the chance to disassemble it tonight after work.

'67 rs - ordered new by my Grandfather
327 L30, K-K, Deluxe int, tach & gauges, 12 bolt posi, 4 speed.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Melrose RS is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Team Camaro Tech forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address.
NOTE we receive a lot of registrations with bad email addresses. IF you do not receive your confirmation email you will not be able to post. contact support and we will try and help.
Be sure you enter a valid email address and check your spam folder as well.



Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome