Ignition timing and auto trans? - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 2nd, 12, 02:45 PM Thread Starter
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Ignition timing and auto trans?

So Jinx was running like sh*t at the end last season. I parked it and defered the fix.

So now it is time. 350/300 stock engine was running rich (assumed due to smell) and missing. Vac was 15 and idle was poor. I rebuilt the carb (Q-jet, no issues found) and have been working on the miss. 2 cyls were missing which must be why it smelled (2 and 7 had bad crusting). New plugs did not help, replacing just those two wires with old ones which fixed #2, and #7 got a little better, but not fully. Going for new points, cap, rotor and wires tonight. Seafoamed it yesterday.

Been reading the best way to tune. set initial + mech advance 36 deg all in from 2500-2800. Then work on the vac adj. (I have Crane adjustable).

But my questions are:

1. does the stall speed (stock 1800) and RPM range of the trans/rear affect timing settings? (200r4, 3.55 gears)? I.E. with a stock converter, total should be more/less then the 36 deg?

2. reading the crane can instructions, say to do a test drive with vac off. that can't be right. Was going to set can to max, timing to 36. Test drive. If knock, retard. if part idle ping turn in the vac can. instructions say if you turn can in 10 turns, then you have to use a limiter. I am running the limiter, so I will take that out before I start.


So does any of this change depending on an auto trans with stock stall speed? thanks!

Kevin


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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 2nd, 12, 06:31 PM
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Re: Ignition timing and auto trans?

They might be taking your vac. adv. system out of the loop by unplugging it at first. My aftermarket dist. doesn't even have a can on it! In reality, the vac. adv. only adds timing advance, ~15+ deg., while cruising around. It helps with fuel economy. At WOT, advance drops to 0. Initial and "all in" timing does not include vac. adv.

http://www.corvette-restoration.com/.../Timing101.pdf

http://www.corvette-restoration.com/...c_Adv_Spec.pdf

http://www.corvette-restoration.com/...ine_Timing.pdf

I've never owned an auto trans. (muscle) car. So, no experience there. But if one checks the specs. in the Service Manual, there isn't any difference in timing between manual and auto... THOUGH, the idle RPM setting is always BELOW the 0 deg. adv. RPM setting, e.g. 0 @ 900 RPM with 650 RPM idle speed. I could never get my MANUAL car to idle that low! So, I guess I had some advance "in" at ~950 RPM...


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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 2nd, 12, 07:19 PM
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Re: Ignition timing and auto trans?

I agree with CB. With a stock camshaft equipped 350, it should get 18 inches of vacuum at idle in neutral at 800-900 rpm.
Drop it into gear, with a stock convertor, rpm will drop 200 rpm and engine should run smooth, providing compression is within 10% of all cylinder readings.
Vacuum gauge is your buddy.
Use a dwell meter to set points at 30, otherwise, no dwell meter, set gap at 0.019", then set initial timing between 8-12 BTDC, in this order.
Engine should go from idle to WOT (5000 rpm) in about 3, maybe 5, nanoseconds.
Read JohnZ's Timing 101 sticky.

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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 2nd, 12, 07:40 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Ignition timing and auto trans?

Yup, read them and all the other posts and articles I could find, nothing on auto trans differences. Am going to try again once I get this miss corrected. I put the timing light on all the plug wires and getting intermittant misses on #7 still. The new plug wires XACT fit like crap, about a foot too long. Going to take them back and try another brand.

Kevin


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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 2nd, 12, 09:42 PM
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Re: Ignition timing and auto trans?

Basically there is no difference between setting up a trans and manual
A trans in NZ means auto.....gearbox manual
I run a 1200 torque convertor and when go to the strip throw the 2500 in again no changes
yeah there is a difference...auto is generally final idle speed finally set gear...1 person can do it...manual set in N..and if in gear..2 people. lol

Quote:
The new plug wires XACT fit like crap, about a foot too long. Going to take them back and try another brand.
I buy my HT leads off the reel and make from scratch...used 'top gun spiral wound' since the late 80s, only ever used 2 setts in that time daily driver well over 150K miles.
eccelent heat restance when lay on the cast iron manifolds

I would be thinking if intermitant miss on #7 either a bit of cross fire..but unusuall with modern HT leads...or a crack in the dizzy cap or rotor or spark tracing in the the cap....or a spark plug gap too wide/closed up????'

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 3rd, 12, 06:03 AM
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Re: Ignition timing and auto trans?

Did you take a peek under the hood at night with the engine running? Maybe see a spark jumping. Only a thought.

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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 3rd, 12, 06:59 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Ignition timing and auto trans?

Thanks Steve, I will try that if it still have the miss after replacing parts. The cap and rotor were a little worn after close inspection. Replaced cap, rotor, points. Just have to get a good pair of fitted wires and give it a go.

Kevin


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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 3rd, 12, 03:21 PM
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Re: Ignition timing and auto trans?

Cap and rotor..couple things to consider...
The spark jumps from a sharp edge of the rotor to the pin....the top edge must not be rounded off...which happens when people just sand/clean.
Worn pins in the cap....yep clean up chip the oxide off.

Now consider the spark plug gap..that is important to a heatly spark right?
And it is athe air restance in that circuit across the gap that is important to the spark Right?
But we have 2 gaps in that circuit..the one between the rotor and cap pin AND between the center elecrode and spark plug ground....
The resistance of oxide build up/corosision on the cap pins effects the quality of that spark, so we chip and clean up. But now we have opened the gap between the rotor and pin...and increase the resistance of the total of the 2 gaps.
In doing so, since elecrons flow the easest path like water, and defect/dirt in a rotor or cap becomes very sensitive to leakage, bad spark.
But we dont want to change a cap ever 6 months or yr....so closing up the plug gap 3 to 5 thou will often 'fix' a problem.
When a cap gets to being this worn that closing up spark plug gaps 'fixes' the problem it is time for a new cap and rotor.

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 4th, 12, 05:41 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Ignition timing and auto trans?

OK, new cap, rotor, points and MSD cut to fit wires, I was able to get most of the miss out. (still hear a little something, but no missed light from the timing lights tests). Did silver/silver springs and 36 all in by 3K or there abouts. Now I am getting 18 on the vac at idle. It took 10 turns of the crane to get the off idle ping out, but it is out now and running well! Thanks for the shoulder! On to the cleaning and other chores to get ready for the season!

Kevin


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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 4th, 12, 06:15 PM
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Re: Ignition timing and auto trans?

Nice!


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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 12, 07:11 PM
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Re: Ignition timing and auto trans?

Kevin - I love your car, but I could have sworn you have (had) a 327/210 in it. Was I wrong or did you swap motors?


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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 12, 09:11 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Ignition timing and auto trans?

The factory original 327/210 is on the stand awaiting a rebuild. What is in there now is the engine from the SS350, 300hp. I had to pull the 327 out a while back because the harmonic balancer was damaged causing vibration issues. Hope to get the original engine back in there soon.

Kevin


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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 13th, 12, 06:08 AM
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Re: Ignition timing and auto trans?

Kevin, when you say "10 turns to get the off-idle ping out...", is that 10 turns clockwise from being totally backed off?
I can't remember where I ended up with mine, but I'm thinking I need to crank it some more.

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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 13th, 12, 08:00 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Ignition timing and auto trans?

The crane instructions say to turn it clockwise until it stops as the initial setting. Then turn counter-clockwise (2 turns at a time) to get rid of part idle ping. I did 10 turns counter-clockwise. took it out last weekend and backed it off 1/2 turn (clockwise) and the ping came back. I have to reset it to 10 turns before the cruise tomorrow.

http://www.cranecams.com/uploads/instructions/210g.pdf

Kevin


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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 13th, 12, 08:07 AM
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Re: Ignition timing and auto trans?

Thats right.... CCW.
Thanks...

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