Starts hard??? - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old Mar 23rd, 03, 07:25 PM Thread Starter
 
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ok, i have a 88 5.0L camaro with TBI, and ive been working on it for a month now... it runs fine when it starts but it takes a very long time to start...and when it finally does start, the engine light comes on for a sec as it starts then goes off... when i plug in the code reader, all i get is code 12??? the only thing i can mabey think is wrong that i dont know about is that when i trun on the ignition, the fuel pump comes on and stays on...i heard that it should come on for 2 seconds then go off before you start the car...could this be it?...someone please help!

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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old Mar 24th, 03, 02:09 AM
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Low fuel pressure will make these cars an awful PIA to start cold. Check the pressure with a guage at the throttle body inlet. 9-13psi I believe. If the pump can't make enough pressure to crack the regulator valve in the throttle body, then the system will get vapor locked and crank for a long, long time.

Plugged fuel filter can cause this, but more likely a weak pump.
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old Mar 24th, 03, 09:30 AM
 
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As I remember in 1988 they made a TPI Camaro but not a TBI?

If you car is a 305 TPI then it should read about 32 PSI on the fuel rail once fully charged (before you start the car and after the pump stops from turning the key in the on position).

In any case with the key in the on position with the car off the pump should turn on, charge the pressure in the lines then stop.

If your pump does not stop running once the correct pressure is reached then you may have a leek in the line (if you smell or see gas), the pressure sensor could be bad or a wire is shorted/bad.

Code 12 is "No distributor reference pulse"- This code will flash whenever the diagnostic terminal is grounded with the ignition On and the engine not running. If additional trouble codes are stored, they will appear after this code has flashed three times.

It sounds like you may have a wiring problem.
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old Mar 28th, 03, 01:30 AM
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1988 305 Camaro could be TBI (Vin E 8th character of VIN #)
TPI (VIN F 8th character of VIN #)

Code 12 from the scanner just means the ECM has the ability to diagnose itself and set fault codes. In other words this is normal and is working as designed.

A long crank time before starting could be a bad fuel pump relay. If the fuel pump relay goes bad the fuel pump will then run off the oil pressure sending unit once the sending unit "sees" oil pressure creating long cranking times before starting.

If you have TBI you need 9 to 13 lbs. psi of fuel pressure. You can install a fuel pressure gauge inline in place of the fuel filter. This may require some adapter fittings.

Have you done a compression test of the engine?

Keep us posted.

Drew<br />69' X-11 Coupe
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old Mar 28th, 03, 09:09 PM
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pretty much any auto parts store can sell you a cheap fuel pressure gauge that screws onto the fuel line somewhere by the regulator- that's what that tire valve looking thing on the fuel line is for.

you don't plan sincerity.
you have to make it up on the spot.

wanna hear about 20 years ago when i was too smart to know any better?
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old Mar 29th, 03, 04:41 AM
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Novaderik, I've seen a fuel tap on a fuel rail with a car with TPI but this guy is saying his car is TBI, I've never seen one on a GM TBI vehicle.

Drew<br />69' X-11 Coupe
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old Mar 29th, 03, 06:00 PM Thread Starter
 
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sorry i havent wrote in a while, but i was away for a few days...now, with you telling me this about the relay switch, and if its bad it looks at the oil pressure, it makes perfect sence! i noticed from the get go that it wouldnt start till the oil pressure gauge read anything...i thought it was the relay, and now i know! thank a whole lot!

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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old Mar 30th, 03, 05:44 PM Thread Starter
 
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OK!, i bought a new fuel pump relay and installed and nothing....the fuel pump doesnt come on when you turn the key on......but i know its not the pump, because if i bypass the system and get juice to the pump, it will start and run fine...and i know its not the relay because i just replaced it...and i know for sure it starts when rigged and it wont start till it reads oil pressure...so, it comes down too this, without it being rigged, when you turn the key on the pump doesnt come on, and its not the relay, or the actual pump.... what else could it be?

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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 1st, 03, 01:37 AM
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Check power at the fuel pump relay.
Make sure your looking at the correct relay, the A/C relay looks identical.

Orange wire is 12 volts feed to relay by seperate 20 amp fuse in fuse holder.
Dark green w/white tracer is 12 volts w/key on (this wire activates the relay - should only have power for a couple of seconds)
Black w/white tracer is the ground.
Tan w/white tracer is 12 volts that goes to the fuel pump motor.

If your not getting power from the dark green w/white tracer wire when you first turn the key on this wire comes from the ECM (fuel pump driver), could be a problem there.

Make sure your grounds are good.

When you say "rigged" are you talking about putting 12 volts to the red fuel pump test lead?
Located near the relay.

Drew<br />69' X-11 Coupe
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 1st, 03, 12:43 PM Thread Starter
 
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when its rigged, i havce a wire from the hot wire on the coil, to the orange wire in the relay...then the pump comes on when you turn the key on

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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 1st, 03, 02:03 PM
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Greetings asmbandits,

That sounds like you are bypassing the twenty amp fuse that protects your ecm in case of a short at the fuel pump relay. The fuse is located along that orange wire that you have hot wired and is situated up near your battery. If this fuse is blown, your fuel pump will not operate unless it is jury-rigged like you have described. I changed out a perfectly good fuel pump one time because that 30 cent fuse was blown. I found out about the fuse after the fact that I had already changed the pump and was fixing to do it again because the #()))&*&J* thing didn't work.



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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 1st, 03, 02:14 PM Thread Starter
 
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i thought about that but i cant find it so it really could be that...i checked near the battery, but couldnt find it..i'll look in my manuels, if anyone knows exactally where it could be on a 88 305 tbi, let me know...thanks

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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 1st, 03, 04:24 PM
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[img]graemlins/waving.gif[/img] Greetings asmbandits,

Check your e-mail, I sent you a picture showing the location of that fuse. If it is not there or somewhere in that area, then a previous owner has removed it and just hot wired the system.

The Trickster!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 1st, 03, 06:08 PM Thread Starter
 
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hey trickster, i got your e-mail, but im a idoit and i was reading it and deleteing junk mail, and i deleted the mail and it vanished and i can get back to it...IM SOOO SORRY, do you think you can send it again? im a goof i guess....it would be greatlly apreciated, and if you dont its ok...thanks thoe...

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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old Apr 2nd, 03, 04:23 AM
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[img]graemlins/clonk.gif[/img] Greetings asmbandits,

We all make mistakes, I have re-sent that e-mail to you, print it out and also save it to disk. [img]graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

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