Parting out the "White Wonder" - Team Camaro Tech
Troubleshooting Diagnosing problems done here.

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post #1 of 40 (permalink) Old Dec 11th, 02, 04:55 PM Thread Starter
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Or Mr Grumpy needs help Part II:

Please refrence: https://www.camaros.net/forum/Forum5/HTML/002440.html

Ok lets start this fresh from where we are today (Jess is on graves so I really haven't been able to lend a hand so I've been giving him my parts each night before he heads off to work and he trys them the next morning!!)

Car won't idle for more than a few minutes but now it's stable at 900rpm until it starts acting up. We've run his dist on my car and now my carb on his car. The problem persists. Tonight he brought my carb back and left with my coil and the plate I have between the carb and manifold (for my TV assembly) I suggested a new cap and rotor as well before we start looking into at taking compression and leakdown.

The one thing that has us wondering is a bit of yellowish almost milkish residue on the carbs baseplate where the tube for the PCV is. I see it as oil being sucked into the carb from the valve cover and mixing with fuel. We both have the same baffled covers and my mill makes more vacuum and stays clean in the same area. John Z menttioned too much crankcase pressure blowing out the rear manifold gasket, add in the blow-by in the PCV port and maybe this is an internal issue. The plugs don't foul or load up so we are running out of bolt on options...

Gone over all vacuum fitting and brake booster, put rags soaked in ice water around the base of the carb, Run with the PCV port blocked off and I feel we have the tuning part down pat. If you review from the start it really has come a long way. With all the slop out of the system we are left with the real problem so to speak. If Jess get time at work tonight I'm sure he can add to some of this. Thanks for the support on this one guys, I guess we'll know more tommrow night.

If you haven't seen pic's of Jess' car here are a couple. The engine compartment hs been restored back to factory from the the way it use to look... http://www.camaroslimited.com/memberscars/jess.htm

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post #2 of 40 (permalink) Old Dec 11th, 02, 08:25 PM
 
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DJD,
You touched on everything. This morning the car seemed to idle quite nicely. Once warmed the longest it would idle was for 4 minutes, that's enough to get through a stop light. Does anyone have any ideas on the oilly milky gue in the PCV port of the carb?? It's also soaking the carb gasket in that area. Is this a bad sign for the heads? I'll know a little more tomorrow and then my next step is to do a compression and leak down test. If anyone knows how to do these tests in detail please e-mail me, thanks.
Just got some incredible news today. Found out the wife is 11 wks pregnant. Went to the Dr. today and had an ultrasound, saw the baby movin around. Maybe I'll get this Z running right by the time he/she can drive. I'll start early by reading it shop manuals and maybe it can wrench for me. Thanks for all the help guys.

Mr. G

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post #3 of 40 (permalink) Old Dec 11th, 02, 09:22 PM
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Whitish milky last I knew was water mixed with oil common to head leaks or jacket breaks between oil and water passages. Hope not. If you've ever had the valve covers off it might be evident. Does muck show up at the radiator cap when cool....possible oil into water jacket from jacket leak or heads. Maybe there is a slight leak and the stuff pops up from the steamed slight moisture and oil fumes. If you have a breather to carb hook up disconnect it and see if the problem stops. Puts a new meaning to vapor lock if so. I know it's been allot of posts but maybe look at the plugs hot cold correct type or if they have rust. You can remember the old forgot to plug it in routine. Maybe the battery is up to 12 or better but it doesn't have the amps to carry the weight when idling drops real amps for life and the engine dies since the generator isn't keeping things amps up. Are you using an electric fuel pump and reduced turns pulleys. Good luck. I hope it isn't temperature rises dumping more steam into the piston area at a leaking area. Does the engine run rough right before dying? I'd think it would do that with low voltage or a bad seal between oil and water. Once again good luck. Put a piece of white paper at the exhaust one at a time and see if any one of them is blowing crud like water. Anything and everything.
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post #4 of 40 (permalink) Old Dec 12th, 02, 12:06 AM
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The brownish goo in the pcv might be from condensation building up in the crankcase. This will happen if the car is only run for short periods of time, without letting it completely warm up. This sounds like what you've been doing lately while trying to diagnose your problem.
As for the problem itself, just a couple of basic things to check that I don't think have been mentioned. Is the vacuum canister working properly, ie. when you apply vacuum, can you see the baseplate move? Check for corrosion in or on distributor cap terminals? Cracked high voltage tower on coil? Have the heads been milled, and if so, was it enough to cause an alignment problem with the intake? If you have iron exhaust manifolds, is the heat riser valve opening when it warms up?

[This message has been edited by Kyvox (edited 12-12-2002).]
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post #5 of 40 (permalink) Old Dec 12th, 02, 12:43 AM
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Hey! Isn't that false advertising? I want the wheels and tires.

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post #6 of 40 (permalink) Old Dec 12th, 02, 02:19 AM
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Grumpy,

You can do a compression check with an inexpensive compression gauge that you can pickup at your favorite auto store or Sears. (or Dennis!) You just remove the coil wire so the engine won't start, remove a spark plug and either screw the compression gauge in the plug hole or just hold it there. Depends on the type you use. Have someone turn the engine over a few times and watch the gauge. Do it for each cylinder and write the numbers down to compare each.

For a leak down test, you'll need an air compressor and some type of air gauge with a T fitting on it. You screw one end of the T into a spark plug hole and attach the compressor to the other, with the gauge in between. Pump some air into the cylinder (not sure how much pressure?), stop the air, and watch the gauge. Make sure all the air line fittings are totally air-tight first. If it holds the pressure for a few minutes, that cylinder and rings are probably OK. Go around the each cylinder and watch the gauge. If the air escapes and you see the gauge needle decreasing slowely, there may be a problem with that bore or rings.

The first thing I thought of when Dennis said "oily/milky" mess was water in the oil! But like Kyvox said, that can happen when an engine isn't allowed to warm up and run at operating temp. for a while. Cars that are only driven a couple miles at a time have that problem.

Good luck and CONGRATULATIONS on becoming a father (again?) My best to you and your wife! Santa came early!


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[This message has been edited by HwyStarJoe (edited 12-12-2002).]
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post #7 of 40 (permalink) Old Dec 12th, 02, 03:20 AM
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I agree with every thing suggested here. Does the thermostat work correctly?

As Joe suggested, use a good compression gauge, one that screws into the spark plug hole. Remove all the plugs and tie throttle to WOT. Remove power to ign system.

Cylinder leakage test is usually done with a dual tester. First gauge is set on 100 psi, second gauge reads cylinder pressure, the amount of leakage.

The formula is: 100-second gauge reading divided by 100%. This gives the answer in percent of leakage. I would believe anything over 7-9% would not be a ggod thing.

While the leak tester is in place, one can listen for leakage, intake for intake valve, exhaust for exh valve, and oil fill cap for ring leakage.

To troubleshoot this problem, I'd probably crank curb idle up to 1600-1800 rpm, use a vacuum gauge and tune for max, then slowly work throttle down to 950-1000 rpm, dependent upon cam specs.

Again, CONGRATULATIONS on the newbie!!!

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[This message has been edited by Everett#2390 (edited 12-12-2002).]
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post #8 of 40 (permalink) Old Dec 12th, 02, 04:30 AM
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I want the wheels Dennis. Jess, first kid? I don't have anymore to offer as far as the car goes. We need the compression and or leak down figures from here. I know your frusrtation. My 327 still idles at 1000 rpm with 6" of manifold vac. with a 222 duration 447 lift cam. I've gone thru at least as much crap as you have so far. I gave up and just run the car. It pulls hard and gets 15.4 MPG Go figure.
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post #9 of 40 (permalink) Old Dec 12th, 02, 04:43 AM
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Dennis can I have the headlight washer solenoid? Please? Trade ya the neighbors barking dashound for it even up
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post #10 of 40 (permalink) Old Dec 12th, 02, 05:58 AM Thread Starter
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Unfortunatly I don't have the gauges to do either test. I do have compressed air though. As for the title Jess has been refering to my car as "The Parts Car" all week so I just played off that.

The not warming up the engine long enough to burn off moisture is a possibility I pondered but didn't give much weight to it as the times I was present the mill was up to temp and had been running for long periods of time.
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post #11 of 40 (permalink) Old Dec 12th, 02, 07:51 AM
 
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Ok, here's todays status figures. Z=20 Me=0.
Last night I raided my parts car and came off with some goodies. I swapped DJD's coil and 1/8" carb base plate. Still no difference. Went and bought a new cap and installed, no difference. When I idle the car, it idle for a good 30-40 minutes before stalling, once warmed. After reading the posts, and it being a nice day I drove the Z around today, 25 minutes or so. When I removed the 1/8" base plate noticed the oilly goo still there, now alot more running down the intake. I may not have run it long enough, but that's kinda odd. This morning before starting the Z I checked the oil and water level. Both seemed ok neither seemed to have the other in it.
I talked to the guy that did the heads, explaned the problem. He's willing to look at the car and stand behind his work. I'm gona run the compression and leak down test before taking it down and after these storms blow over.
Thanks for the kind words on our new arrival and for all the posts. I'll keep evryone informed.
DJD took a pic of the engine compartment, sent it over. I would post it if I knew how, sorry.

Mr. G


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post #12 of 40 (permalink) Old Dec 12th, 02, 09:01 AM Thread Starter
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Here's a current pic of Jess's engin bay. The one on the page above is before putting things back factory.

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post #13 of 40 (permalink) Old Dec 12th, 02, 11:46 AM
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Jess- I have a good compression tester gage package. Also with some slight modifications I think this can also be turned in to a leak down tester. Let me know if you want / need to use it.
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post #14 of 40 (permalink) Old Dec 12th, 02, 03:04 PM
 
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DJD + Mr Grumpy-

I read in a previous post that David Pozzi made a comment about an MSD product. Can you tell me exactly what you have for a dist/coil/box? I had a problem with a 6AL box, once the car got to running temp would run similar to the problems stated. It had a cold solder joint in the box....go figure.

Secondly, give this a try and tell me what happends, its fairly easy.....when you have the engine running and it is warm, pull the PCV off the valve cover and plug the end of the PCV with your finger and tell me if you hear any noises or changes in idle/running quality.

One last thing, you also stated that you had the booster rebuilt...possible vaccume leak? I have had new bosters fail this before too.
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post #15 of 40 (permalink) Old Dec 12th, 02, 04:17 PM Thread Starter
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chicane67:
DJD + Mr Grumpy-

I read in a previous post that David Pozzi made a comment about an MSD product. Can you tell me exactly what you have for a dist/coil/box? I had a problem with a 6AL box, once the car got to running temp would run similar to the problems stated. It had a cold solder joint in the box....go figure.

Secondly, give this a try and tell me what happends, its fairly easy.....when you have the engine running and it is warm, pull the PCV off the valve cover and plug the end of the PCV with your finger and tell me if you hear any noises or changes in idle/running quality.

One last thing, you also stated that you had the booster rebuilt...possible vaccume leak? I have had new bosters fail this before too.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

chicane67 - Both Jess and I have "Dave's small body HEI's" and we have run his in my car with no sign of problems. We both run the Accel coil recomended by Dave. The booster was rebuilt a while back and we have checked and it's sealed properly. It's been a couple of weeks since I was last able to help Jess directly but when I pulled the PCV out of the valve cover I believe the rpm went up just slightly and when I plugged the vacuum leak it came back down. I think Jess change the PCV recently and recently he actually plugged the port on the carb and the problem persisted.

Jess when you changed the cap today did you also replace the rotor???

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