Rings ?? - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old Apr 6th, 01, 01:30 PM Thread Starter
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Iím starting to assemble my 400 sb. Iím using hypereutectic pistons and they came with Sealed Power moly rings. Speed-O-Motive (parts supplier) advised that I need to increase the gap of the top ring to .028 (.040 over 400) with these pistons. I got a ring filer from Summit and found this is yet another one of those tasks that takes a bunch of experience to do right. I managed to get the first ring right and the next too large. I've now found that extra top rings are not easy to find without placing a special order.

Any thoughts on gapless rings? Maybe it would make more sense to just buy a set of good gapless rings rather than special order extra top rings or buy a whole new set. I donít want to weenie out but I also donít want to go thru a bunch of expensive parts learning a new skill or end up with poor ring performance.

Bill K - I also saw an old post where I think you recommended Speed Pro rings?

Any advice would be appreciated.



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Scott
'69 400SB, Richmond 5-speed
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old Apr 6th, 01, 03:07 PM
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I can't say that I can help you, but I have also been considering gapless rings in my next engine, so please let us know how it goes.
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old Apr 6th, 01, 03:08 PM
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Scott,
Are the pistons Keith Black's ???? If not, I dont think you have to increase the top ring gap ! They are the only Hypereutectic piston that requires it as far as I know. Send me the part number and I will tell yo for certain.
If they are K.B.'s........extra rings are not that hard to get if your machine shop is willing to try. How much bigger did you actually go on the top rings ?? you could probably go as much as .034 and never see a problem in my opinion. Gapless rings will not help as usually only the second ring is gapless and you will still have to file the top one. Speed-Pro rings are great, but over kill for most applications. Stick with the Sealed Power ones and you will be fine, plus a lot cheaper. If you are not in a big hurry and nobody wants to help you out, e-mail me Monday morning and I will find out what a single ring will cost to have sent to you.

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Bill Koustenis
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[This message has been edited by BillK (edited 04-06-2001).]
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old Apr 6th, 01, 03:12 PM
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Scott,

I currently have three 406's and all of them are running Speed Pro plasma moly rings. They seat immediately, take a bunch of punishment, and don't use oil. I've had four engines with the Total Seal gapless rings and EVERY one of them consumed oil, although the leakdowns sure looked good. I've heard they've fixed the problem but I won't take a chance anymore.


By the way these are file-fit also. You really have to sneak up on the gap; as you've found it's easy to go too far. I may end up making 6-8 trips between the block and the ring filer but it saves me the trouble of trying to find some single rings.

By the way, did you try the too large gapped ring in another hole? You might get lucky and have it be okay somewhere else.

Jody


[This message has been edited by Camcojb (edited 04-07-2001).]
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old Apr 6th, 01, 08:31 PM
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There should be a recommended gap range for those rings...not just a fixed figure. How much gap did you end up with? Also, that last post made a very good point...try the rings in another hole...you may end up right on the money.

Bill, I believe that all hypereutectic pistons require larger than normal ring gaps...I may be wrong but have never heard otherwise. Even cheapo hypo stock replacement pistons require larger gaps...at least that was the case with every one I have dealt with.

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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old Apr 7th, 01, 11:19 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks guys - as always there is great advice here! I tend to be a bit exact so I wasn't considering being able to tolerate a slightly larger gap. I'll check the actual size of the gap and also try the ring in other cylinders. If all else fails - I may take you up on your offer Bill. Thanks again!

BTW - I called the tech guys at Crap-O-Motive to discuss this with them since I bought the pistons and rings from them (my mistake). They were their normal helpful selves - the guy had no comment and offered no advice. In fact, I thought I'd lost the connection because the guy wouldn't even speak. When I pressed him he sorta grunted "whatever" and asked if that was all I wanted!



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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old Apr 7th, 01, 12:58 PM
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Unless the ring gap is huge don't worry about it you won't know the difference. The most important thing about the grinding tool is to go slowly and check the gap often and don't get in a rush.

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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old Apr 7th, 01, 04:24 PM
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Travis,
Keith Black pistons are the only ones that require a larger top ring gap due to thier design !!!! All of the other hypereutectic pistons use normal ring gaps. This includes all of the Sealed Power, Ohio, Badger, Speed Pro, Federal Mogul and all the OEM hypereutectic pistons. If you use the big ring gap on those pistons, you will have some blowby. I quote from the page xiv of the 2000 Sealed Power piston catalog ..."our hypereutectic pistons operate perfectly with standard ring end gaps, and have conventional ring land locations" I think you will find the same is true with all the others exept the KB's. If you do not believe me, call the piston manufacturer and ask them, which you should do if there is any doubt anyway.
Scott,
Let me know which pistons you are using and I will find out for you for certain. There should be a part number on them.

------------------
Bill Koustenis
Owner
Advanced Automotive Machine
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1971 Chevelle "Heavy Chevy" original owner
1973 Z-28 ..one family car...Brother bought it new in 73

[This message has been edited by BillK (edited 04-07-2001).]
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old Apr 8th, 01, 06:25 AM Thread Starter
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Bill -

I'm using the Silvolite H3424 pistons which I understand are made by KB. My instructions say that the top ring is located higher on the piston therefore necesitating a larger gap. They recommend a gap of .0065" X bore size. In my case my bore is 4.165 so this comes out to .027.

Thanks again!

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Scott
'69 400SB, Richmond 5-speed
www.geocities.com/sdenning1
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old Apr 8th, 01, 02:11 PM
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Scott,
Actually, Silvolite makes the Keith Black pistons. That explains the top ring gap. As long as you have the instructions and they tell you the ring gap, that is what you should use. That is sort of the point I was trying to make, nobody should try top guess, or take the advice of others, unless those others have the same exact piston (or other part as far as that goes) and the instructions to go with them.
Hope they work out ok,


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1971 Chevelle "Heavy Chevy" original owner
1973 Z-28 ..one family car...Brother bought it new in 73
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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old Apr 8th, 01, 03:46 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Bill - I did recheck that one ring and it was only at .030 so it sounds like that should be OK. So far so good on the rest of them.

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'69 400SB, Richmond 5-speed
www.geocities.com/sdenning1
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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old Apr 9th, 01, 09:37 PM
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Bill, maybe I should have elaborated a bit...back in the early 90's when the hypereutectic pistons started hitting the aftermarket, several of the manufacturers recommended larger than normal ring gaps (the few that I dealt with). I havent dealt with these types pistons since then...not after seeing what happened to a set of speed pro's after a little detonation. According to the vehicle owner, he must have got a load of bad gas...got a little light pinging (his words) and within 30 minutes of driving the engine was dead...3 pistons completely shattered. I suspect that as the technology has improved so have the pistons.

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