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VIN, Tag, Engine & Intake: 69 SS/RS project

11K views 47 replies 19 participants last post by  click 
#1 ·
For those of you who have read my other POST, I went to see the car today. I'll list all the details in the other post and a link to pictures. Remember, this is supposed to be a real SS/RS 4-speed 396 L78 car. The engine is not from the car, it's out of a 69 Chevelle but it is an L78 engine with 4-bolt, right heads and intake.

124379L521499

ST 69 12437 VN260373 BDY
TR 721 59 59 PNT
02A C225


Engine: 3855962
Intake: 3885069


VinMan out.....
 
#2 ·
how do I check these numbers above, can anyone help or giude me to the right spot.

Thanks Guys
 
#3 ·
The engine isn't out of a 69 Chevelle, either. It may have been in a 69 once, but it is older than that...

3855962 1965-66 396 360, 375, 425, 4 bolt

Intake is "right" for the block.

3885069 1966-68 396 375 L-78
427 425 L-72


Did you get your trim tag decoded yet?
 
#4 ·
Here's the tag. The car should be Frost Green, with a Medium Green interior. Nothing here to denote an L-78 car.

1 = Chevrolet
2 = Camaro
4 = 8-cylinder engine
37 = coupe body
9 = 1969 model year
L = Los Angeles, CA assembly plant (Van Nuys)
521499 = vehicle serial number sequence

Decode for body number: 260373

02A = Built the First week of February.
69-12437 = Coupe.
VN = Built in Van Nuys California.
721 = Standard Medium Green Bucket Seats.
59-59 = Car Color is Frost Green
C225 = internal plant scheduling code.

Does it have any of the other clues from the previous post, like the dual exhaust frame rail bracket and the single 3/8 fuel line?

One clue we forgot to mention for a true 69 RS is a headlight washer solenoid on top of the wiper motor. They aren't reproduced, and the used ones are pretty pricey so most guys converting from plain to RS overlook it.

There's probably a certain set of codes for the 12 bolt (it is a 12 bolt rear, I hope) that would go with an L-78 car (BU, BV??), but I am no expert there. I can look at the info Chevy sent me, but I bet one of the guys here will know.

If we go on the presumption that it cannot be proven as an L-78 car, $22K is too much for an unassembled, unfinished car. I also am personally not a fan of a solid lifter motor in a street car (unless of course it was a real, numbers matching L-78...but then I'd probably leave it parked most of the time anyway :) )
 
#5 ·
It is Frost Green, there's some left in a couple spots, but the car is mostly prepped to be painted. Very straigt body and good work.

I'm going to post pictures, I'll need to do like an O-Foto.com link (it's free, you just have to sign-up)


Here's what I found out. He has so many new parts he's collected over 8 years, he can't even remember them all. We were looking through box's and kept finding new stuff (he owns an auto parts store)


NEW: complete front clip and core support (did not need it, the original fenders, etc are fine), Grill, Rear bumper, heater & fan, Dash pad, dash insert with guages, package tray, pedals, emblems, radiator, tach, clock kit, lock kits for doors & trunk, new door handles, clutch & pressure plate,
steering colum guts (original column and wheel, but wheel needs to be replaced). There was more new stuff in box's.... small stuff that would add up, but we didn't go through all of it.


ENGINE: It is 100% done including plugs, belts and aluminum pully kit. He spent $10k on it, it's a thing of beauty with ceramic headers, plugs, that rare Intake, Demon Carb, holley pump, miloden pan wires, mallory distributor, coil.


What the vehicle NEEDS: shocks, rotors, pads (basic brake stuff front & rear), Seat skins (then to upolstery shop), carpet kit, headliner, door panels, rubber kit, basic GM front suspension rebuild kit, u-joints, headlight switch, new hurst shifter (original in bad shape), exhaust & mufflers (has ceramic coated headers)
wiring harness & fuse box, both look OK....but...
front springs & leaf springs should be OK....but...

I'm sure there will be many other little things..... :confused:

As soon as I download the pictures, I'll copy the link
 
#6 · (Edited)
Ware is the part when you prove the car is a REAL RS/SS 375 HP? I remember you saying the motor was a z16 engine? That would be a 65 Chevelle engine? The car sounds way to far off for a $50k dollar car. Sounds like the owner is going more custom than stock? Unless it is just like gold, I most likely wouldn't spend my $22k on it. What are all the rear end codes and other info that may lead one to believe it's the real deal? Could you tell if the rockers or the rear panel were blacked out ever? Sounds like a bunch of un answered questions on that car. The owner most likely has a ton of money in it. But that's not your problem! Sounds way steep for a car that is hard to prove it's real and is totally disassembled? Maybe a Z16 396 is worth 10K? If he wants 10k for a 396. Let him keep the motor! I wouldn't get too exited over this car for the money being asked! If the car was in an un restored or had not even been started yet and was more of a complete car? It would be easier to prove what is is, you could document things with pics. But being non matching, you may be able to pass it off as something more than a standard? But rs/ss 375?
 
#7 ·
Guys,
I really appreciate all the feedback. Here's a link to the pictures

http://www.kodakgallery.com/AlbumMenu.jsp?

I was able to confirm a few things about the car
12bolt = yes
speedo cable should enter below washer pump = yes
Multi leaf springs = yes
AC = no

With all this said, the VIN & TAG's lsted and all the feedback from here, it looks like the car is a real SS 4 speed car with RS option.... right...?

I think it was a big block car....... ?

but no way to prove it ever was a L78 car... right?

What would be a good price you would offer...

The main thing confusing me is, I go to classic car autotrader and ebay, etc... and even the "Clone" cars are going for big bucks. Non NOM 396 cars, Z28's and such and most real clean examples are 30k + and those are not #'s mathcing.


Thanks again guys, If I could give you all a hug, I would (not really, but you understand what I mean) :beers:

I'll be in training all day here in Boston (work travel), I won't get back to this page until tonight.
 
#8 ·
Picture link doesnt work?
 
#10 ·
#12 ·
Eric,

You'll have mail.... I cut it down from 50 pics to about 20. I'll send it in 2 emails.

I'm such a retard (or just too Sicilian) :clonk: I've used ofoto links before with no problems.

Thank You
 
#14 ·
Well, I've got the pictures. There's 36, but I'm going to just post ones I think have the clues to what the car was.

First gives an overall idea of the car as it sits today. It has new EDP coated front sheetmetal, including cowl hood. I can't tell if the sheetmetal is repro or GM. It isn't fitted well at the moment, but I can't tell who made it (would have to look for GM stickers).



Car has a 12-bolt, been in there a while but can't say it's original. Has U-bolts, slapper bars, and 5-leaf springs. Two fuel lines, so it was a Quadrajet-equipped car, which means it could have been an LM1 (350/255), L48 (350/300), L35 (396/325). or L34 (396/350), but not L78.



Not a lot to say underhood. Heater box cover is out, it does have the speedo hole near the distributor (can't see if it also has one near the fuse box, to see if the upper hole is original or not. No wiper motor installed, so no RS headlight washer solenoid visible. The firewall has been drilled where the 6-cylinder throttle cable would go through, but it has a V8 VIN so I doubt it was a 6 cylinder car originally, unless the hidden VIN under the circular hole for the heater fan doesn't match the tag on the dash...





This is the only shot I have that shows the radiator, and I think it is a small block radiator and shroud but can't be certain.



Dash carrier looks like a new repro, because the tach (which also looks repro) doesn't sit in it yet (they don't repro the inspturment panel for tach applications yet, so you have to cut the back of the carrier out to get the tach to sit down in). Tach is a 5K redline; if it was an original tach belonging in an original L78 car, I think it would be a 6K redline. 5K redline had smallblock applications I think, but again it doesn't look original. I have a shot that kind of shows the underside of the dash near the fues block, and I don't see any vacuum hoses for the headlight (RS guys, I'm not certain where the lines go through the firewall to the switch; can you see the area in the above driver side underhood shot??)



Just for yucks, here's a shot of the $10K 396.



I don't have any shots of the RS reverse lamps where they come through the tailpan, so can't say if they look original.

Vin, please don't take any of this as a poke at you, but I don't see anything here I would remotely pay $20K for. Maybe someone with data would have an idea which Q-Jet equipped cars were rolling down the line at Van Nuys the first week of February 1969, but this is definitely not an L78 car. There could be a build sheet still above the fuel tank, but I kinda doubt it. If it does not have the reinforcement plate for dual exhaust on the driver side rear frame rail, then it was definitely LM1 without optional duals.

The 12-bolt could have been in any of the engines listed above, as could the 4-speed (an M-20 most likely, possibly an M-21 if big block and low rear gears).

Might have been an RS, but without seeing the tailpan (and without input from the RS owners about whether you could see vacuum line holes in any of the above shots if it was a factory RS).

As far as the engine goes, it looks nice if you like that look, but it is obviously not remotely correct looking and won't really add to the value of the car the way you think (IMO). If it is a rare block and components (what's left that's GM), maybe it's worth something to the Chevelle guys like the Z motors are to the Z guys, but they'd have to "restore" the appearance of the engine at a minimum.

From everything I have seen, I think that car as it sits now is about $10K overpriced, even if it was a real RS and possibly even an SS. Without the matching drivetrain, it will be hard to prove it was ever an SS. A solid, completed car with these parts is a $25K max car, I think.

Anybody else want to wade in here??
 
#15 ·
I don't see the grommet for the RS, but I think I see the dimple where it should have been drilled on the firewall. It's just above the fuseblock in that pic, and to the left, almost level with the upper bolts for the brake booster. Kinda catches a glare from the lights.
Weren't the hood springs different for SS cars? Maybe he could check that. Also take one of the backup lights out and look at the hole in the valence. It's only 4 screws.
 
#17 ·
I picked up on the same thing.... it would be interesting to see if the back up light holes are cut out....
 
#18 ·
The first pic shows the back up lights and they look a lot more legit then some recent cars for sale here and on ebay. Eric, what on the trim tag would denote an L78, I did not think there was? The timing decal for an L78 and L89 I think are the same, so how, without OM could you tell?(between L78 and L89?) I'm not talking about Vinmans car.
 
#19 ·
3forme -

Nothing that I know of. Even if you had an X22 or X66 Norwood car, that just means SS396. You'd be back to looking at the fuel lines to figure Q-Jet or Holley, which only gets you to L35/L34 vs. L78/L89/L72. Same for a Pre-X Code or VN/LOS car. If you knew it had been a big block, fuel lines would steer you in the general direction of which type you had, but not pinpoint it.

There are certain rearend codes that "match" or belong with certain combos, but I don't have that data.

So, short of having a numbers matching L78 or L89, I wouldn't have any idea how you would differentiate between the two. I suspect they'd have had different front springs, but even then unless the tags are still on, you'd be SOL.

As far as the reverse lamps go, you can't really say much looking from the rear like that. need to look in behind to see if the holes are stamped or cut. They're not hard to make legit from the back and 15 feet away; I did it on the 68. The back side of the pan, under the lights, and in the trunk is a different story.
 
#20 ·
I want to thank everyone for your feedback, I really appreciate all the information :thumbsup:

You guys are great. Eric, thanks for posting the pictures.

I called him yesterday and told him I was not going to buy the car. Being an early model Camaro rookie, I thought I was getting an SS/RS car that had a 69' L78 engine. Even though the engine wasn't from this exact car, it would be still worth a good penny all complete. I need another car like I need a hole in the head, but a real SS/RS L78 car for this price...... that would have been a good deal that I could have got buy-off from the Sheriff (wife) ;)

What this car is... is a SS 4 speed car that has many...many...many new parts, straight body, $10k 396 engine and would make a nice driver once complete. All together and painted, a solid $25k+ car, maybe a little more, probably not less.

He's a nice guy, I wish I could help him out. He said he could go down to 18k, so if anyone is interested let me know and I'll hook you up with him. I'm sure he'll go lower if he can't sell this package it for 18k.

What I could absorb and fell would be a nice deal..... $10k-$12k for this car, engine and parts. $4k for extra parts to finish it. $4k for a shop (60-70 hours at $50 hour) to complete it (I'm fooling myself if I think I have the time). Plus 5k for paint (body work is mostly done) = $23k - $25k

Thanks again guys :beers:

VinMan out.......
 
#22 ·
He was going to paint the car yellow, hence the yellow block. It wasn't painted with a spray can, it's a urethane heat restant paint, nice job. He''s going to spray it Chevy Orange if I or someone wants to buy it.


UPDATED SITUATION Need advice:

He called me this AM and wants to sell the entire package for $15k
He's in a bit of a cash flow dilemma. now what do I do..... :clonk:
 
#23 ·
I'd go $10K and tell him to keep the 396 and sell it to someone else. Then drop a GM crate 350 or 383 in it and have some fun.

Seriously though, does the car come with a trans, bellhousing, and new clutch, dirvehaft, everything to make it driveable? If the car is solid, you are starting to approach where you could almost get into it and not lose anything if you have to sell.

I sort of doubt your estimate on how much it would cost to pay someone to put it together, because it looks like more than 60 hours of work to me, but if you could just farm out the bigger jobs and handle the small bolt on stuff yourself, you might be in the ballpark.

A frost green, 69 Camaro SS 4 speed car is a nice ride, small block or big block. If you have the cash and aren't worried about finishing it and having to sell it in a year, you probably won't lose money. They are only going up, and there are more than a few of us who thought a relatively short time ago (10 years?) that $10K was steep for a running, driving big block first gen. Now I think all of us would buy as many as we could get at that.

I'm going to go back over your posts from the beginning and see if I see any big ticket items missing, but I think you're getting really close...
 
#24 ·
I went back and saw you mentioned a new clutch and PP, and I will assume that a Muncie and 69 shifter (should have a Hurst handle, the upper part of the handle is round shaft and the lower is rectangular and fits into the shifter itself in a slide in/press fit (no through bolts) configuration...this is a 69 only shifter, not reproduced, and originals are hard to come by and fairly pricey).

If I was you, I would see when one of the local TC guys like Van, Dennis, or dragsterman is available, and let a first gen guy crawl all over it. You'd have to swear them into behaving themselves and not buying it for themselves (Van has enough 69s, I think...). If he came down $5K in a few days (or less than a day), maybe $12K cash gets the car. I'd still try to get it without the motor, because I'm not wild about a solid lifter street car. Good luck!

Oh, and if you get it, make sure you continue to hang out here with your fellow Camaro deviants. Even if you don't get it, I'm sure you'll be looking for another.
 
#25 ·
Eric,
Thanks for the ideas, mine is a La car by the way. Been sitting quite awhile so the 375hp timing decal I believe to be orig. On the Backups , your right I was more refering to location. Some butchers just hack 'em in anywhere! Vinman, I would like to check out that car if you don't want it,how to contact? I'm in the Bay Area as well.
 
#26 ·
ANOTHER UPDATE:

The motor HAD solid lifters in it when it was taken apart, now it doesn't. He built it Hydraulic. No every couple months valve adjusting needed.

About the 4k for assembly, that was 1k higher than what I was quoted. Here's the scenario.... the guy I would buy this from owns a parts shop, he supplies resto parts to a local guy who does restorations. The resto guy told him 2k-3k CASH to put it together, I added another 1k on top of that.

I have been searching 4speed SS cars w/ BB on ebay, craigs list, old car trader..... etc.... and non motor numbers matching cars are going for 25k min. Mostly $30k+. The only thing that is not 100% certain is if this was an X22 car which would mean it had a BB originally. If it did, I can not imagine that me building this for $25k is not a good deal. It would be a 4speed SS car that had a BB and it still would be that car, just non numbers block. Unless I'm missing some secret Camaro club web page where a car like this would only go for $20K. Now if this was a SB car.... then I would agree that 25K is not a good deal. You guys are all great and I'm going to list my cell phone here 408-802-8705. I need advice...... :clonk:

I can't scroll back to page 1 of this thread, but someone said with the numbers I listed there was not a 100% certain way to confirm it was a BB car, right?

VinMan out.....
 
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