Explain the circuit - Team Camaro Tech
Brakes, Suspension & Steering Conversion questions, Steering & Handling

 
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old May 15th, 07, 12:06 PM Thread Starter
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Unhappy Explain the circuit

I had problems this year when I took the rag top out for the first time. When I pushed the pedal, the car steered to the right straight away and the "lined up" and headed straight. This happened everytime (tried it about 10 times) Breaking power was normal. Everything else was fine - just steered right and then lined up and headed straight. After a while, my brakes just...disapeared. No braking power what so ever.

Since I changed all the gaskets and renovated the front brakes (discs) last year, I figured - "It has to be the master cylinder!". So - Off I went and had the master cylinder renovated. Put it back in the car, attached everything (checked for leaks - no problem, nice and dry everywhere) Bled the brakes (pedal was feeling firm. No air in the lines). Started her up and slowly (thank God) took her down my driveway.Again - I had lost all brake power. There was not even enough power for the weels to stop rotating even if I was driving on gravel. When we bled the brakes, everything was fine. 2 minutes later, all braking power was gone.

So - my first question is - What the heck is wrong with my brakes? Could it be the front pistons, or the gaskets. Again? It's only been a year since I last took it apart and changed the gaskets! I have had the car parked in a cold storage during winter. Have I missed something completely or what?

Could someone please explain to me how the brake circuit is connected? Is the rear right brake connected to the left front brake? Are the two rear brakes connected separately from the front brakes? How does it all hang together?
I have discs in front and drums in the rear. I also have PB's, if that makes a difference.

Please help! Summer is approaching. Fast.

67 Swedish Convertible

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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old May 15th, 07, 03:52 PM
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Re: Explain the circuit

First of all - check your front wheel bearings. If you have a bad one or out of adjustment, it can cause the rotor to wobble and retract the piston in the caliper causing loss of pedal. If that checks out OK, you need to bleed the CRAP out of your system - perhaps a gallon or more of brake fluid.

If you still have the stock setup, there will be a rectangular steel block under the MC. The two holes on the front sides of that block go to the front brakes. It is fed by the front outlet port of the MC. The line should go from the front port to the hole at the front of the bloc, or possibly from the front MC port to a round valve located on the driver's side of the MC to booster connection and then up to the hole at the very front of the block. There is one side hole on the rear of the block - driver's side - this goes to the rear brakes and is fed by the rear port on the MC. There should be a short line that goes from that rear port of the MC to the very back of the block.

That rect block should also have a wire connected to a single post - it's the pressure differential switch. If the system notices a difference in pressure between the front and the rear, it activates tyhe switch and your "BRAKE" light on the dash shoulkd illuminate.


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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old May 15th, 07, 08:43 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Explain the circuit

BPOS,

I checked the bearings yesterday. They're fine.

I have also bled the system with more than a liter of fluid. Are you telling me there could be even more air in the system even if I can't see any air whatsoever when I'm bleeding them?
Are there any "automatic" bleeding systems out there for speedier bleeding or do I have to continue with the old fashion way?

Thanks again BPOS

Oh yeah - I forgot to ask one more thing: If the rear brakes are connected through the valve, and have a separate cannister (the most rear compartment of the master cylinder) Do I still have to bleed the rear brakes even if I'm currently working on the front brakes? So far - I have done just that. Started with rear right and worked my way to the front - all according to the book.

Thank again.

67 Swedish Convertible

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Last edited by 67 Swedish Convertible; May 16th, 07 at 06:36 AM. Reason: Forgot to ask..
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old May 16th, 07, 09:02 AM
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Re: Explain the circuit

Did you bench bleed the new Master Cylinder? On a factory power system, the MC sits at quite an angle, and if it wasn't bench bled before installing it on the car, you'll never get all of the air out of it.

I use this to bleed my brakes: http://www.motiveproducts.com/02bleeders.html

I forget the exact model I bought, but it's the one with the 1105 adapter. (American Bleeder Kit)

It's very easy to use, and makes short work of what is normally otherwise an exercise in frustration.

It's the fronts that are connected through the metering valve, (if you have one). It's a round thing with a large hex nut on the front of it. Since you replaced your MC, you need to bleed fronts and rears. Otherwise, you only need to bleed whatever circuit you're working on.


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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old May 16th, 07, 12:10 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Explain the circuit

Sounds good BPOS. I have just got back in after spending 3 hours trying to bleed the system. More than 1 gallon was flushed through...
Rear brakes - No problems.

Front brakes - Major problems. I could feel air in the hoses all the way up until the caliper (as my buddy pushed the pedal, I could feel the air moving through the hoses and pipes).
Right hand side, it all went away after a while. Went over to the left side and all we got was air. It looked a bit like shaving cream coming out of the hose that I connected to the nipple. Fluid was full of small bubbles of air.
Also sounds as if I had a kind of "back draught" in the system. As we let go of the pedal, we could hear kind of a slurping sound. After a while, we could also see a pillar of air and fluid raising up in the cannister. Something is terribly wrong here...
I have not bled the MC. I will check the site you refferred me to and see what they've got.

Any more suggestions are greately appreciated.

Thanks heaps guys

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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old May 16th, 07, 12:12 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Explain the circuit

BPOS - There were 14 different bleeders on that page. Which one did you use for the MC?

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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old May 16th, 07, 01:08 PM
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Re: Explain the circuit

OK, Stop! We are assuming that you know how to bleed brakes. Everyone might be trying to be too polite and not offend.
Lets start from bench bleeding the MC. Bolt it on, take off the cover and start at the rear bleed valve furthest from the driver. Loosen it when a helper is applying pressure to the brake pedal. When your helper shouts 'floor', close the valve. Your helper THEN releases pedal. IF the pedal is released before the bleed valve is closed, air will be sucked back into the line from the bleed valve. VERY BAD.
Now, repeat the process again. Then stop. Fill the rear of the MC with fluid. (if you fail to keep it nearly full, air will get into the system from that end too.) Now get back under the car and bleed again. Do this until no air is evident. Might take a half dozen (that's six for Swedes) cycles. Then go to the other rear wheel, the one closest to the driver, and do it all again. Keep that MC topped-up and never release the pedal until the bleed valve is closed.
Now move to the front. Same procedure. See how easy it was? Sure hope I didn't talk-down to you.
One more thing. This job is messy without vinyl hoses leading from the bleed valves to a catch-can. Once fluid reaches the catch can IT'S GARBAGE. Never recycle it to the MC! Also instruct your helper to push and release the pedal gently. That way fluid is less likely to ERUPT out of the top of the MC.
Go get 'em.

One owner 69 Camaro,(yep, bought it new
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Last edited by Fred Ficarra; May 16th, 07 at 02:10 PM.
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old May 16th, 07, 01:58 PM
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Re: Explain the circuit

If you haven't bench bled the MC, you need to take it off of the car and do it. Here is a how to:

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/.../0509sc_bench/

Once it's bench bled - and you get NO bubbles whatsoever - install the MC back onto the car, and Fred's procedure will work just fine. An easier method is with the pressure bleeder. The one I use is the "American Bleeder Kit". The "Early American Power Bleeder" is $15 cheaper. It lists the correct adapter for the rectangular MC (#1105), but it shows the wrong adapter in the picture.

The pressure bleeder does NOT make bench bleeding the MC unnecessary.


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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old May 16th, 07, 11:56 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Explain the circuit

Fred & BPOS,

I did know how to bleed the grakes. I have done that more than once and understand the importance of not having air sucked back into the system. However, thanks for reminding me..

I have had the MC off the car more than once and it has been emptied from fluid more than once but I have never before bled it. The brakes have been easy to bleed and I have always managed to get the air out.I did read through the "How to bleed the MC" part and will try that later today.

It's mind over matter right now and I will not give up until the brakes work. That will be later in the afternoon...
I'll let you know how it goes.

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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old May 17th, 07, 08:57 AM
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Re: Explain the circuit

Thanks for the feedback Swed, and good luck. Your car will appreciate your work.

One owner 69 Camaro,(yep, bought it new
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128.79mph 1.428 60'
All with 1960's stuff. (except tires and converter)
+ MT Super Scavenger headers & 3" full exhaust with X pipe. 3700 lbs. with me in it.
1000cfm AED and HD Harold-Lunati SR, 725 lift with shaft rockers too.
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old May 17th, 07, 09:53 AM
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Re: Explain the circuit

Quote:
Originally Posted by 67 Swedish Convertible View Post
Fred & BPOS,

I have had the MC off the car more than once and it has been emptied from fluid more than once but I have never before bled it.
Sounds like you're on track - just make sure after you put the MC back on the car that you don't let either reservoir in the MC run out of fluid. If that happens, you gotta start all over.


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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old May 17th, 07, 12:26 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Explain the circuit Fred & BPOS

Fred & BPOS,

MC is bled. I've got brakes and this years firs burnout is a fact!

YYiiihhaaa

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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old May 17th, 07, 01:29 PM
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Re: Explain the circuit

Glad you got it done! Congrats!


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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old May 17th, 07, 05:40 PM
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Re: Explain the circuit

I always bench-bleed first, to get the trapped air out of the bore (you'll never get it out any other way):



Then pressure-bleed with the Motive Products bleeder - one trip around the car and you're done, even with the notoriously difficult Corvette 4-wheel 4-piston calipers; one-person ten-minute job, nice high, hard pedal. I didn't care for their chain-and-wingnut arrangement to clamp the adapter down, so I use a 6"-long piece of 1-1/2" square aluminum tubing I had left over from another project with a 6" C-clamp; easy on and off, no leaks.



Note: The system in the photos is a '67 Corvette; if you use a pressure bleeder on a Camaro disc/drum system, it won't bleed the fronts unless you depress the plunger on the round metering valve; that valve prevents any fluid flow to the front calipers until the pressure exceeds 30-40 psi, and the Motive bleeder works at 10-15 psi.


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Last edited by JohnZ; May 17th, 07 at 05:56 PM.
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old May 18th, 07, 12:13 AM
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Re: Explain the circuit

Good point on the metering valve, John. An easy way to depress the plunger on the metering valve is to wrap a radiator hose clamp or one slightly larger around it and tighten it down. (worm gear type clamp)


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