Camaro VS Mustang handling - vintage race potential - Team Camaro Tech
Brakes, Suspension & Steering Conversion questions, Steering & Handling

 
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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old Jan 18th, 01, 04:41 PM Thread Starter
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David Pozzi
 
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This was origonally asked of chicane67, but it was at the end of a long message and probably got missed.
Anyone care to comment on this, jump in.

If you have any experience, can you comment on the performance potential of the early Mustangs, and up through 70, 302 in the second gen Mustang, vs early Camaros?
In vintage racing they are kicking ***. There are some first gen Shelby Mustangs that are down to 2400lbs and regularly beat the small block Cobras, and solid axle vettes!
I've heard the Ford guys have taken a 289 engine out of a Cobra and put it into a Mustang and gone faster on a road course. They say the Mustang makes better use of all four tires. Which to me, says the Mustang has a better weight balance front to rear.
One guy told me his Mustang has around 375hp at the rear wheels. Does this sound correct?

I'm talking vintage legal Mustang with stock rocker arms, etc, no late model stuff like roller cams, or aluminum heads.
Supposidly a Chevy has more HP but more weight (the vintage associations don't weigh the cars so that's where they cheat)

What I'm trying to do is pinpoint some goals in building my 69 Vintage racer.

I'm trying to come up with what the current vintage race Mustangs weigh front and rear, and what the rear wheel HP is.
Any light you can shed on this subject would be helpful.

I know there is one 69 Camaro that is competetive, it's the ex Penske Camaro. It most likely is acid dipped to reduce weight, but is probably still heavier than the Mustangs.
I saw one but more 70 Mustang where the door wiggles if you open it and shake it open and closed!
David



[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 01-18-2001).]
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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old Jan 18th, 01, 06:20 PM
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Hey David-

Sorry, I missed out on this reply from 'that other topic'.
(Did you catch my last note to you in the '12bolt vs. IRS' commentary?)

It is funny how what has always been 'harped' on myself is weight. To think that all we are trying to do is control weight in the ac/deceleration and cornering of what we drive. I have been a weight concious builder since Guldstrand/Penske, go figure, the grandaddy of weight reduction....Penske.

I do look at weight as the #2, to function(#1). And the rules are read, as you interperate. I recall Mr. Yunick stating once, "There is no such thing as cheating, there is only innovation". That was a lively breakfast morning.

Alloy h2o cooler and pump. Composite Master cylinder. Thinner/shorter exhaust tubing. Lighter weight 'AN' style fittings and hose (aeroquip has some really light stuff now). Alloy powersteering pump and resivour. Thinner front sheet metal(the repop stuff is a lot thinner). Gut the doors, lexan windows, alloy driveshaft(if rules allow) max the delete option list....(start working out and running like I said I would for my New Years resolution) driver weight reduction....think about how much stuff you can get between the wheel base, think about how much stuff behind the rear axle....re design the cage for better structural usage and using less tube....

I have spent weeks thinking of this stuff. And if I didnt drive my 67 on the street and didnt care about wind noise and water, my car would weight about 2750 lbs. (After I start running again).LOL. It weights in at about 3000 even right now.

Back in the day, the 289 Cobras out handled the four-two-sevens. Weight is every thing.

I'll have to dig up some of my old scale records and see what the true 'back in the day' running weights of the cars were.

Then again, maybe I should run to my tool box.....

Tom
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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old Jan 19th, 01, 04:36 AM
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David, I can't give you specifics on the Mustangs but a couple thoughts that may help. Check out the NORCAL Shelby American Automobile Site at http://norcal-saac.org/ There are a lot of hard core road race guys in this club. Are you in Northern Cal or SoCal? Maybe you can glean some information from the site or find a good source to talk to. Having owned Shelby's since I was 16, I can tell you that alot of the Mustangs are being built today as "R Model" replicas. As you probably know, those cars were really stripped down with plexiglass in the side and rear window areas, fiberglass front end parts, rear seat removed, all inner door parts removed, no bumpers etc. I will look in my Shelby registry tonight to see if I can find more info for you and maybe even fax as I feel these "R Models" are your big competition when it comes to road racing.
As for the power of the engines, I know the regular Shelby's in 1965 were rated at 306 hp. The "R Model" higher. With today's better heads/intake/cams and maybe even throwing on a set of well tuned Weber carbs, 350 hp seems very doable.
Last, I don't know how far you want to go with this, but Walt Hane lives just outside Denver in Evergreen and still builds, restores and races early Shelby's and Mustangs. Walt drove a Shelby Mustang to the 1966 "B" production championship and really knows his stuff. He is an engineer. When you talk to him about building a road race car, he will start with braking, then handling and last in line is power. Send me a note and I will track down his e-mail address and phone number if you would like. He is a great guy and happy to share his knowledge.


[This message has been edited by denverRS/SS (edited 01-19-2001).]
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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old Jan 19th, 01, 05:32 AM
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David, dumb question, do you guys scale your cars before hitting the track?. I don't know much about what type of weight percentages a road course car would like, but do you know
generally what type of percentages these Mustangs are running? These guys may be lightening up these Mustangs, but I would think they would still have to put some lead in there some where to get their percenatges right. My circle track car has to weight 3400. With me and all my lead out of the car it weighs approximately 2900 lbs. I have 300 lbs. of lead in the car to make weight, mounted low mostly in the trunk and left side behind me on the drivers side, circle track cars like alot of rear precentage!

Like it was mentioned above, is gutting the car an option? How about moving the engine back if your rules allow? Moving the engine back even a small amount will make a difference on the scales and help balance the car. These Mustangs may be putting out some HP but if the cars aren't setup right it won't make a difference. How about lowering your front and rear roll centers? I'd imagine these guys have to be paying attention to this stuff. Maybe this Walt Hane guy will be nice enough to share his scaling tips (and weight percentages) with you. I know circle track and road racing are two different animals, but these are just some thoughts.



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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old Jan 19th, 01, 06:32 AM
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David - as a long time Vintage racer ( over 10 yrs in Formula cars ) I am working on a 69 Camaro myself. At our current track at most races they run all the Vintage cars together, It is scarry diving inside an Alpha or Mustang in my Formula Ford under braking hoping they have seen you, ( been hit once and just missed several times, hence the Camaro, If you want to rub , then lets RUB..
The rules in Vintage are MONEY TALKS.. those with the most go fastest.. one of the local boys just dropped over $370,000 on a Penske
camaro and pulled everything out to REBUILD to the max..so rumour has it.
Several A sedans that I have known since the 60's have been brought back and are a lot faster now then they ever were orginally.
One in particular is a 67 mustang that now runs 500 plus HP.
It seems that the mustangs have the edge at the track ( generally the shelby clones ) but there are less camaros running as well.

A buddy built up a 68 mustang several years ago , not a mega $ car , and it did not run anywhere near the front. He sold it because he couldn't afford all the tricks that the others were running. If you look at the trans am film footage from 1966 and 1967 and compare it to the cars now its a laugh. When I went to the races in the late 60's and early seventies, the camaros ruled A sedan at most local tracks. I think that the shelby mustangs have been developed to the max over a number of years and probably are all illegal, remember they are B production cars which should be running against the small block Vettes , not the A sedan Camaros.

But lets not get into the rules, everyone cheats, how much money do you have to spend = how fast your car is!!

The most fun in Vintage racing is to find a car that is your speed in your class and have a good dice.My Brother and I have matching Legrand Formula Fords and we just race with each other within feet/ inches most of the time, then the last lap is up for grabs.
The idea of cubic money is only okay if your car has original trans am History as otherwise it is never going to appreciate much.
I am hoping to have my Vintgae racing Camaro on the track for under $5,000 , It won't be the fastest car out there , but it is out there.
Some of the budgets for some of the racers are over a $1,000,000 a year so to compete good luck.
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old Jan 19th, 01, 03:30 PM Thread Starter
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Guys, thanks for the input, I'll check out the mustang link.
Legrand, I can't imagine running with full fendered cars in a FF!
I've run the Lola with them and it's not a problem cause I'm big enough and they know I'm coming!
It's fun to follow a Mustang and watch the car lean and go around the corner looking under the rear of the car as he goes.
Then blast past on the straight.

No way I'd run with them in a FF!
I plan on doing some autocross and smaller vintage events with the 69.
I'm going to save 40 lbs easy on the driver, I'm going to let my wife drive!
She will probably beat me too!
I need to pick up inner wheelwells for my 69 as the previous owner tossed them.
The rest of the body is done, it does have the optional hood with the square fake intakes on it. I'll probably get a glass cowl hood.
Lots of stuff has already been taken out of it.
I'm anxious to see what it weighs!
I wonder if they would notice if I put in an aluminum 302?

I don't want to spend a fortune like some of the other guys have. Some of them are so serious they spend a bundle.

Yes, the early Mustangs run against the B prod vettes. I may have to run against them when I run the small SCCA vintage events in my area.

Keep the info coming this stuff is good to hear.
I'm trying to come up with a front and rear weight of a racing Mustang if possible.
I've heard the Mustangs have been competing against each other so hard, they have left the others far behind. They are just more developed and they have gotten good at driving too!
I'd like to see the Camaro guys get faster and pooling our info is the best way to do it.
David

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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old Jan 19th, 01, 04:42 PM
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David,

Before I moved back to L.A. a had a 1967 Mustang and had to sell for the move because I had no place to store the car. I'm sorry I did because I loved that car. Anyway, I did all the research to hop the thing up and a great supplier is Mustangs Plus (mustangsplus.com)in your neck of the woods, south bay or there abouts. They offer race suspensions so they might be a great source for any Mustang info. Man, that car was rust free too!

Joseph
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old Jan 19th, 01, 05:01 PM
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Dave I did a lot of solo before going Vintage, helps in the corners..
Hints get the stickiest tires that they allow, keep them fresh, no more than 2 race weekends on a set, Hot solo tires maybe?? depends on the length of the race. 2 go like hell in qualifing, think of it as a Solo , go fast or go home. You can't win if your at the back. Be a road hog, block the good line. Pick one or two tracks that you like - run at them lots, seat time is very important. Set up your car for those tracks, ie high speed or handling. The track we have here is low speed max 80-90 mph with lots of corners, braking and exit speed are important, torque not rpm is require, proper gearing for the corners. It helps if the other drivers are afraid of you , but I usually don't subscribe to that type of driving.
You should check with the groups you are running with as to their rules, re wheels and tires, engine size and modifications
allowed.Some insist on 6.00 15 and 7.00 x15
Goodyears, others insist on bias ( Hoosiers )
some want 60 series radials. Heard good things about hoosiers but they suck in the rain, which we get a lot of.
First thing you want is reliability ( breaking and going home sucks) , next - handing and braking, next gearing / responsiveness, then horsepower.
Driving time is right up there as well.
my lap times can be up to 5 seconds out depending on my seat time for the year.

My car built as a hobby stock car, but I am converting it over, I am using the 8 X15 wheels as required, ( have aset of 10x 15 minilites ) using some 225/60 Dunlops(free )
a 350 engine ( what was in it) changing the 3 speed to a 4 speed, your CBB - have got the template from PDQ67 , some rear discs from a later Camaro, and the quicker manual steering box.

Am hoping to go to Laguna in November for the SCCA Vintage weekend.. _

Whole car on the track for less than $5,000,
should be fun. Actually if my wife drove I could save 200 lbs, but I dont think she could move the steering wheel or the manual brakes.
I am going to the the Gulstrand mod running about 5 degrees of Negative camber when I change over the spindles and brakes.
The car runs some 1/2 ton truck springs cut down is it stiff, with KYB shocks. The front
swaybar is stock and I have a rear bar but I want to put some time in before I change the suspension. Since we have a small track with lots of corners and it is smooth, it may work as it is, will let you know in April after we try it out.
If you have any hints let me know. Thanks for the help with the brakes, saved me a bundle...
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old Jan 22nd, 01, 11:38 AM
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I checked some of my books at home and they say the R Models weighed in around 2300 pounds and produced about 350 hp (they measured different back then though, didn't they?). Shelby took two gas tanks, cut them in two and rewelded the larger halves together to come up with a 30-something gallon gas tank. No story gave the front/rear weight ratio but I would guess with a full 36 gallons of gas in the tank, the car was pretty balanced. I have read that the '67 Shelbys were 52/48 for the GT350. I would say if it doesn't make the car go, stop or turn, take it off!! Good luck with your efforts.
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old Jan 23rd, 01, 06:24 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info guys. You are giving me some things to shoot for/think about.

I'm going to put a glass hood on it and take off anything I can expecailly on the front end.

Laguna is very hard on brakes, put some ducting on before running there.
David

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