Who needs leaf springs? Great price!! - Team Camaro Tech
Brakes, Suspension & Steering Conversion questions, Steering & Handling

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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old Jul 3rd, 03, 04:00 AM Thread Starter
 
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Well, thanks to Silver69Camaro and chicane67, I have gotten a quote on lowering, higher rate leafs. I will be ordering a set next week. However, they told me the price is reduced for buying more sets. Here are the prices:

1 set $198
2 sets $160
3 sets $147

This spring had a rate of 260lbs/in, and should lower the car about an inch. chicane67 designed this spring for me; I have a 69 with an iron big block, 4 speed, and 3.70 rear. I am planning on using Bilstein shocks, and Moog front springs.

If you are interested, please respond here by Monday morning (7/7). I will be placing the order that afternoon. Shipping will be from the west coast, and is not included in the price.

Ken
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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old Jul 3rd, 03, 08:39 AM
 
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Keep us posted Ken.

For those considering a custom set, please inquire for a rate/ride recommendation for YOUR chassis. There are many variables that will make and break a good handling suspension and you only want to spend your money once right?

The spring information sheet has some notes on it that will give you some direction on what has to be considered BEFORE you have a spring made.

This information is free, as I am glad to be of some help.

The Spring Sheet
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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old Jul 3rd, 03, 11:37 AM
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Sean
 
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hey chicane, i imagine those springs gravitate more toward carving, do you have experience with drag applications as well? springs for my camaro are a next winter project, but i'd like to start looking in to some options. really, my factory multi leafs work very well for me now, but i'd like to drop the tractor stance an inch or so, plus these old boys are pretty heavy. thanks for any input [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

Sean

1968 rs with an old school 354" SB2.2 pump gas motor.

Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth.

Franklin D. Roosevelt
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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old Jul 3rd, 03, 12:34 PM
 
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Actually the applied theory of the spring build was more to effectivly control straight line acceleration than it was for its cornering ability. The original spring was developed to control a loss of traction and to control wheel hop exiting the infamous turn '7' at the now extinct 'Riverside Raceway'. It does this by controling spring wrap associated with accelerating. The spring rate however, is relate to the chassis cornering ability. That is why there are pre-requsite's of the engine to create 400 ftlbs of torque or more to use the spring rates that were used in the Guldstran/Penske TransAm Road Race cars in the 60's and 70's.

If you look at the conventional 'Mopar' spring build, the majority of the leafs in the spring build are toward the forward end of the spring. The "FIA" spring build has used this same principal only using less leafs and of a thicker material to coincide with an increased spring rate. A thicker material and lesser leafs is obviously stiffer than multiple, thinner leafs. Thinner leafs and more of them make the spring more compliant (read: ability to transfer weight) with a lesser actual spring rate that has more of a 'increasing' or progressive rate in nature. This would help to transfer load better and in a more controlled manner.

With the correct spring build and that of a lesser rate, closer to the factory mono-leafs (about 135 lbs), you would have the built in 'traction bar' with the more compliant, softer spring rate to transfer the required weight in a drag race suspension, without wheel hop...... just like the Mopar design has done so well for so many years.

It can be done. I would just have to figure it out for the given chassis. My 69 ran mid 10's with leafs and had 60ft times between 1.55 and 1.6 all day long with DOT Mccreary's.

*EDIT* Mind you that the car wasnt specifically a drag race car to begin with.....

[ 07-04-2003, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: chicane67 ]
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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old Jul 3rd, 03, 12:39 PM
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Al
 
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Chicane,

If I give you a desired ride height, as well as the other engine/trans/diff info you need, can you give specific recommendations? Thanks,

Al


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post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old Jul 3rd, 03, 12:44 PM
 
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Yeah, I can get it pretty close. I will say that I can get your desired ride height close, and I will add that you may have to tune the finished ride height with a lowering block of no more than an inch. More like a 1/2" or so......

There are way too many factors that I can not speculate or anticipate without knowing weights of the car. I would really like to have four corner weights, as that would help tremendously in the springs rate and configuration. But any information that you can provide will be a big help.
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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old Jul 3rd, 03, 02:06 PM Thread Starter
 
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If someone decides they need something similar, but not exact, please respond here, and then we can talk by email. I am assuming the price is reduced as the quantity goes up, because the company is only making one setup. Basically, if you desire something different than what I'm getting, the discount may not apply. However, the price for a single set is still much lower than what I have seen for other companies. I'm sorry for the short notice, but I have to have this car ready to roll for the Woodward Cruise, and that's right around the corner.

Thanks again to Silver69Camaro for the original tip about this company; and to chicane67 for sending me a design.

Ken

Here is the post where I found out about this company:

https://www.camaros.net/forum/ultimat...c;f=7;t=004997
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post #8 of 33 (permalink) Old Jul 3rd, 03, 02:39 PM
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Sean
 
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chicane, thanks for the input. i'm also curious about actual weight of the springs. is your design likely to be heavier or lighter than say a factory multi leaf set? i'm also wondering about how they would work with my caltracs. calvert reccomends a mono leaf, i wonder why that is (maybe more compliant?). i considered going with a mono set up just for weight savings. and you mention getting 4 corner weights, would you just need the weights of the car with its current spring combo? i have scales available to me, we use them when setting up the suspension of the heavy street drag car i wrench on. i was going to scale my car any way, with the suspension like it is, just out of curiosity and since it works so darn well right now. it almost makes me nervous changing it, untill i have problems with traction that is. my car ran 1.66 60' times with stinkin' drag radials, not even a hint of spin. i was amazed. well, thanks again [img]graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

Sean

1968 rs with an old school 354" SB2.2 pump gas motor.

Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth.

Franklin D. Roosevelt
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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old Jul 3rd, 03, 03:17 PM
 
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Well, if I were to build a set with the same rate as that of the mono's, they would end up within a a couple of pounds, like 1 maybe 2 lb each of that of a four leaf factory set. The only weight you would really be adding would be that of the extention of the second leaf towards the front main eye. Keeping the lighter spring rate doesnt require adding thicker leafs than necessary.

Mono's are roughly 135 pound springs and are just slightly lighter than that of a four leaf multi. By maybe 6 pounds/ea?

It would be the absolute best thing to weight your current set up as it will reveal total weight on the rear axle. That is the most important measurement in configuring a set of springs.

I would think that if you were to keep roughly the same spring rate, the Cal Trac's would react the same. All you are basically adding is the continuation of the second leaf toward the front main eye for wheel hop supression and would stabilize the forward bite.

I used to leave at 5000+ RPM when launching and it spun about 12 feet out of the hole and just HOOKED from there......... That is one of the biggest gains from running the forward wrap on the main eye. It really limits pinion angle change under launching load.
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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old Jul 3rd, 03, 06:59 PM
 
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So a set of these proper springs would prevent the pinion area of my rear from hitting the body of the car when I leave the line with slicks? I would assume that's a severe "spring wrap". I have a 68 iron BBcar with a 373 rear.
Thanks, Harlan.
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post #11 of 33 (permalink) Old Jul 3rd, 03, 10:33 PM
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Sean
 
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chicane, thanks for the input. if you don't get sick of designing springs for everybody, maybe i'll get in touch with you this winter [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] and harlan, by looking at the design, chicane's springs would surely help you out, i'm sure he can give you some advice. but i'd bet what your experiencing is serious wrap up, my mono leafs did this so bad before putting on my caltracs, i smashed one side of my shocks flat on my axle housing , this was just from jumping on it on the street, i'm afraid what it would have been like on the track. it's definately something to get taken care of though, soon.

Sean

1968 rs with an old school 354" SB2.2 pump gas motor.

Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth.

Franklin D. Roosevelt
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post #12 of 33 (permalink) Old Jul 4th, 03, 01:57 AM
 
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My SS had factory multileafs which I replaced with who knows what kind of spring about 12 years ago. They came from a local spring company. It doesn't do that on street tread, the tires just spin.....hard. But the few times I went to the track and used slicks, the car hooked, and it sounded like the rear was going to come out of the car.Drag racing with slicks is not something I have planned for this car on a regular basis, but one never knows when the bug might bite! And the price sounds right. Yea I'm interested. Thanks, Harlan.
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post #13 of 33 (permalink) Old Jul 4th, 03, 04:10 AM Thread Starter
 
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hgerrick, I sent you an email with more details. Thanks for the interest, it should save us both some money. If you haven't already, I would suggest emailing chicane67 to confirm some things about your setup.

Thanks
Ken
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post #14 of 33 (permalink) Old Jul 4th, 03, 04:48 AM
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We've been looking for springs for our road racing 64 Nova, and I find that Betts Spring is in San Leandro, about 40 miles from my house. Thanks for the info.

We race at high altitude, 6000 ft and up, so the torque from a 327-2bbl isn't anywhere near 400#ft. How does the engine torque affect the design of the spring? We would like to go with a stiffer spring and dump the rear sway bar, as our previous springs were stock multi-leaf replacements.

Betts also makes coil springs if you need some.

"For those that will fight for it...FREEDOM ...has a flavor the protected shall never know."
Semper Fi! L/Cpl Edwin L. "Tim" Craft, B Co 3rd AT's, Khe Sanh Combat Base, February, 1968
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post #15 of 33 (permalink) Old Jul 4th, 03, 01:21 PM
 
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hgerrick - I would have to say that depending on your required spring rate, I would consider two different spring configurations. Mind you that it is dependant on spring rate, how the car is going to be driven and other chassis mods. The first would be a FIA type OR a type of build that Tri-City Competition has used in Mopar since the begining of time. They were the orignal spring supplier to Famed Dick Landy.

BTW, the springs from Tri-City Competition are made by the same exact guy/spring manufacturer that I use for my custom builds. The only thing is.......he's not cheap.

Anyway, either build will eliminate spring wrap so that your pinion snubber no longer hits body.

onovakind67 - 400 ftlbs is required to run the heavier, 260lb and up, FIA springs. However, there is a window of element where a spring will work well with the given spring rate and type of build. If you are out of that window with a given HP/Torque figure, the spring is then effictively either too soft or too hard. Too soft and spring wrap comes into play, chassis bottoms out, understeer become apparent; Too hard and you will just spin the tires and oversteer becomes apparent. Basically, the more power, the more spring you need to control it and functions of suspension geometry.

The partial wrap on the secondary leaf (acting like a traction bar) and the leaf being at a flat static loaded position, the spring has a much higher resistance to the torsional loading from the differential. Therefore with the FIA spring design, much less travel under squat because you are keeping the instant center located better from the increase in torsional resistance on the forward part of the spring. There is also some relation the the front spring rate and the length of the coil in an open measurement....shorter spring, shorter moment angle. Rear CG couple distribution will be less effected by the shorter moment of the front suspension. There is a certain required power level to properly load the spring for it to do its magic without going out of its performance window.

This specifically addresses concerns in road racing.
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