Subframe? a waste of Cash? - Team Camaro Tech
Brakes, Suspension & Steering Conversion questions, Steering & Handling

 
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 26th, 01, 12:02 PM Thread Starter
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I'm in the process of coverting to Baer disc brakes on my 69, well no, actually i'm buying 16" rims so i can put on the disc brakes... Well now that the rims are off, I might as well change the bushings and get that quick ratio box I read about on Dave's page... You get the picture. I'm wondering that if buy the time i replace springs, control arms ect... would I be better off just sucking it up and coughing up now for a sub frame? I know it sounds like a ton of money, but when you add up all the parts i'll end up replacing anyways, is it really that much more? Are the benefits really there? Help me out here Dave. Oh, and then there is that richmond 6 speed and that'll mean a new rear end and... Is there a 12 step for this insanity ?!?
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 26th, 01, 01:27 PM
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Oh, No! It's a suspension thing kinda like the "more power, Scottie" bug!!! Boy, you got trouble now b/c you never finish. LOL!,,LOL!! pdq67



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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 26th, 01, 02:29 PM
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Hmmm, Sounds like Pro-Touring Disease!
Take two Baer's and call me when the car is done!

I think you can do the stock sub for much less and handle close enough to a full on subframe that it will take a stopwatch to tell.
I see that by reading the Steilow Mule project that there are some corrections that were made to the steering geometry of the Wayne Due subframe which will hopefully be incorporated into future subframes. I like this subframe the best of all I've seen.

The others I've seen look more like drag race subframes to me.
A good subframe needs to be stiff in torsion and that requires a good front crossmember with lots of bracing on it, or large size like the first gen has.
The lighter thinner subs might be OK if you braced them into a roll cage with triangulation like a Winston cup car.
This is all just my speculation from looking at photos of subs and reading books on the subject.
I don't have any prices though there may have been some posted here in the past.
David

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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 26th, 01, 02:31 PM
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In my personal opinion, unless your building a car for autocross, or just absolutely have to have the state-of-the-art street suspension it just a little too pricey. I dunno how much you really gain. I've heard/read *somewhere* that by the time you buy the subframe, all the Vette goodies such as control arms, spindles, brake parts, etc then you may be looking at upwards of $7000! Now if that kinda money doesn't bother you and can afford it, then I'd say go for it. Otherwise, just for a cruizer, I can't see spending that kinda money.

....decisions, decisions, decisions!

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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 26th, 01, 02:43 PM
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Cost rundown from Wayne Dues page:

Bare steel sub-frame w/ swaybar $2395
Used 84-87 suspension w/ 12" brakes $1000
(Used as in not needing rebuilt)
Coil-over shocks $400
Rebuilt Mustang rack steering $250
Grade 8 bolts w/nylocks $95
Steering shaft and u-joints about $200

My $7000 price was straight from www.waynedue.com after I looked.

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Doug Gulley
'69 RS
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 26th, 01, 02:53 PM
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Save your money now. My car is going to be a test bed for the new Wayne Due frame, that will use all NEW C5 corvette suspension. Better geometry, less money, ect. The Stielow frame on the Mule is actually an Art Rassmussen frame, and was the early style with a bad bump steer problem. Ever since Wayne took over shop, the whole jig was re-designed, and the bumpsteer was corrected. The new frame will be even better.
To clarify on the WD frame pricing:
He doesn't exactly go searching yards for the C4 parts, you can get it cheaper if you but it yourself. There are epople who bought a bare frame, and did the rest for under 4500.
It is worth it to me for the handling i'll need. I beat the living p*ss out of my cars ALL the time.
Tyler

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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 26th, 01, 04:57 PM
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Hey guys,

Take a good look at your stock subframe before you spend a bunch of money on it. If you know it's tweaked, then you should replace it or spend some money fixing it. If you have a lot of shims in your upper control arm on one side and none in the other, you may have a tweaked subframe. That is a good indicator that your car has been smacked on the side without shims. It doesn't always mean that, but it's more than likely the car has been smacked. Check your mounting pads for cracks too.

If you are going to drive your car extremely hard like Tito and myself, the stock frames and suspension come up short in the performance department. These can be overcome with parts from Detroit Speed & Engineering, Global West, Hotchkis, and Baer. The decision to go with an aftermarket subframe is a big one. Make sure you pick the right one for your driving style. Out of the 4 subframes available on the market right now, I would have to pick Wayne Due's setup. The ChassisWorks subframe is real nice, but it is limited to Wilwood brakes and replacement parts are not available at your local wrecking yard.

My $.02


Tony Huntimer
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 26th, 01, 06:13 PM Thread Starter
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looks like i might sit tight and just stick with the tires, rims and Baer's for now. I'm wondering how much i'll sink if I go with Gulstrands set up? They seemed pretty gung ho about the whole thing really pushing the Bilstiens and all. I guess half the fun is in the hunt. I'll keep an eye out for other related topics. Thanks to everyone for your input.

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69 350 4blt main, vortec heads, Comp Cam XE268 ,performer rpm,holley 600.
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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 27th, 01, 03:21 PM
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Question

Deceresa- Have you run your car in the quarter mile? What rear-end and tranny are you running and do you have any suspension mods?
Just curious to find out about how fast I'll be when I get my heads on because I have the same motor otherwise.
Thanks,
Donnie
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 27th, 01, 08:30 PM Thread Starter
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1968camaro123 I Just bought the car car in November so i haven't had a chance to run the 1/4 yet. It has a th350 with a B&M shift kit. I'm pretty sure the tranny is on its last legs given the metal i found in the pan.I'm not sure about the gears either because i haven't had the diff. cover off yet. I grew up near baylands in fremont and always ran on wed. nights. I'm wondering where i can run and get a time slip in central california. I am getting a wierd light tap at about 2000 - 2300 rpm in the motor right after i jump on it a back off, so i need to solve that before i run it hard.


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69 350 4blt main, vortec heads, Comp Cam XE268 ,performer rpm,holley 600.
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 28th, 01, 02:29 PM
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Oh, okay. Thanks alot and could you do me a favor and if you ever run it; tell me what ya ran? Thanks again.
Donnie
P.S.Where exactly is boulder creek? Around what cities? Just curious because you said that you live in central california and I used to live in Vallejo. (Now I live in Redding though.)
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 30th, 01, 05:29 AM
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I have mentioned this before about substituting a second gen's subframe for the first gen's to gain the front steer, better roll center and 12" 1Le brakes.

I gotta feeling that actually where the aftermarket subframes really improve our cars is not in all the fancy engineering and stuff, but rather the frontend weight loss because there is just less weight to throw around up front in hi-po driving situations.

I will admit that all that fancy engineering is icing on the cake and definately worth it if you have the bucks!

Go for one if you have the money! pdq67



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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 30th, 01, 08:26 AM
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If someone get's their subframe out, please weigh it for me.
I need the bare sub weight.
Thanks, David

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67 RS 327
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 31st, 01, 10:03 AM
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I weighed a bare subframe today on a dial type bathroom scale. According to the scale it weighs 108 pounds. I did it by standing it up on 1 frame rail and balancing it upright.
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old Jan 1st, 02, 06:40 AM
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David,
How long is it going to take you to tell us the stock assembled S/F's weight difference between any one of the fully assembled aftermarket ones?

I think that it will prove interesting.

I would like to compare an aluminum S/F if I knew how to weld aluminum and had the stuff to make one with that was still as strong or stronger then a stock one. pdq67



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