Wow, I finally have decent 4-wheel disk brakes! - Team Camaro Tech
Brakes, Suspension & Steering Conversion questions, Steering & Handling

 
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 27th, 01, 05:45 AM Thread Starter
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For everyone who has provided help along the way, Thanks!

I finally have the 4-wheel disk brakes working good on the Chevelle! I still want to swap in new pads, but they actually work pretty good as is! For those that have been following this fiasco, I started out using the rear disk setup off what I believe is a 77 Fleetwood. It has the large rear calipers and I used the TA 11" rear rotors.
My first issue was not having a working ebrake and the rears were not working good. This was because of the rear calipers not being adjusted right and the self-adjusting mechanism not working right. This was also not working good because I was using a power booster with not enough vacuum.
I swapped in some regular front calipers on the rear and that helped a little, but was still not safe IMO. I figured it was still a low vacuum issue, so I decided to try manual brakes.
My next change was to swap in a manual master cylinder off a early Corvette. I got better braking, but with a lot of really soft pedal that scared me. I did some poking around and it was suggested that there was not enough fluid movement with the 1" bore of the manual MC. I then swapped the front calipers on the rear out for the correct rear calipers and things got a little better, plus now the ebrake worked good. I still didn't like the long soft pedal tho.

I then decided to swap in a Corvette power MC with 1 1/8" bore but without the booster. It worked! And but Good! I have a soft pedal to take up any slack in the calipers, maybe about 1 1/2" of travel, but it firms up real quick and I get good pedal feel. Pedal pressure is not bad at all, actually better than mine was with a booster that was only slightly working.

I hope that helps anyone considering this swap, and please feel free to ask or email me questions. I'm going to be trying this swap on my Nova in the next few weeks when I get the rear end rebuilt, so hopefully the will go a lot smoother.

Bill C.

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Bill C.
Colorado Springs, CO

68 Camaro... someday!
71 Chevelle SS
70 Nova
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 27th, 01, 10:19 AM
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Bill,
Thanks for posting your results here. Glad it worked out.
David

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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 27th, 01, 02:32 PM
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What kind of Corvette did you get the m/c from? Or part number? Thanks
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 27th, 01, 03:10 PM
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Glad to hear you have brakes!

I can hardly wait to try the 1.25" M/C.

Bill, how did you get around the real short M/C pushrod hole thing that will keep it from falling out if the M/C piston hangs up on return??

I ask, b/c all the 1.125" M/C's I looked at were power ones and had the real shallow pushrod hole. pdq67



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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 28th, 01, 04:29 AM Thread Starter
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The master cylinder came from a David recommendation for trying a late 60's Corvette. I'm not sure of the part number, but I think I have it at home if you need it. This M/C does had the 'deep' pushrod hole, so no problem with the pushrod falling out.

pdq67, if you get in a real bind about using your MC that has a shallow hole, I have a pushrod that may work for you. I'm not sure where I got it from, but it has a metal flange that fits over the shoulder of the piston where the pushrod goes and keeps the pushrod from falling out. It is for the shallow hole type MC. The only problem you might have to mess with is that it has the eyelet type connection on the brake pedal end, so you would have to modify it if you really wanted the clevis style connector.

Let me know if you are interested in it.

Thanks again for all the help!

Bill C.
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 28th, 01, 07:03 AM
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Bill,

Would you please sketch up a rough hand-drawn picture of it and drop it in the mail to me along with the info telling what it came off of if it isn't too much bother?

E-mail me at home and I will send my home address to you if you don't already have it.

Heck, I've sent out so many template letter packages I've lost count of who I've sent them to so you might already have my address. I would have to look for my list of names.

Thx. in advance. pdq67



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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 28th, 01, 07:13 AM
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BC,
I've been told there is a pushrod like that one, but haven't seen it.
How far back from the tip is the flange and what is the flange OD?

I have been toying with using a late 80's S10 pickup master cyl. It is the "Quick take up type master cyl with an extra, larger, third piston at the rear of the bore.
The purpose of the third piston is to displace extra fluid quickly for low drag calipers used starting around 1982.
I have a wagner part number for it #F105801 for a 24mm - 15/16" bore.
#F104516 has a 1 1/8" bore. (I'd have to look up the application, might be full size pickup)

The only problem with the Wagner MC's is they are CAST IRON not aluminum.

The stock MC's from GM are aluminum. You might find a different vendor (other than Wagner) who has them in aluminum.
They have US thread ports, and they are on the left side like a stock Camaro MC. The reservoir is plastic and straight up, for manual use, not angled like a PB master.

My thinking is you could use the 15/16" bore for easier pedal and still have a high pedal because the third rear piston moves the bulk of the fluid.
I have not been recomending these for manual use because the rear hole is even shallower than the shallow Camaro PB master cyl.
If something can be done to make these work, I think they would be great.

Thanks, David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
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67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Chev 350 Can-Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 12-28-2001).]

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 12-28-2001).]
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 28th, 01, 07:27 PM Thread Starter
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pdq67,
I will try to get a picture of it this weekend, you really don't want me to draw!

David,
I'll send you the pictures also...

How do you think that quick-take-up type MC would work with the 'normal' Caddy rear calipers?

Bill C.


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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 28th, 01, 09:19 PM
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Should work very well on anything, even better on older non low drag calipers.
The only problem is there is a small valve between the reservoir and bore that makes brake bleeding a real pain.
The valve prevents backflow of fluid from the larger rearmost bore to reservoir during application.
You have to wait 30 seconds or more for each pump of the brake pedal when bleeding to allow the bore to refill through the valve.
It really slows up brake bleeding, but should give a higher pedal with less travel. It might even allow use of a smaller 15/16" bore if need be, for an easier pedal.
I've heard stories about first gen Camaros with manual discs needing very strong legs to stop the car. Their pedal ratios may be different than your car has for the manual hookup.
Stevo Camaro has a 67 with manual discs and his wife can't drive the car because of the hard pedal. At least that's Stevo's excuse for not letting her drive it!

I should add you can put a low pressure residual pressure valve in the lines to reduce pedal travel. They make a two pound valve and a ten pound valve. The two pound will not cause drag on a disc system.
Take a look here http://www.mpbrakes.com/valving.htm
David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page
First Gen Suspension Page
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Chev 350 Can-Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 12-29-2001).]
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 29th, 01, 08:03 AM
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If you were going to use a power mc with a shallow hole, vs a manual mc with deep hole. Couldn't you just measure the difference, and then cut the pushrod? And then to stop it from falling out, perhaps you could get a wood dowel about 1 1/2" round by 1" long, drill a hole down the center of it a little bigger then the pushrod, and glue it to the backside of the fire wall. Since there wouldn't be any real force on it, I would think a good glue would hold it in place. What do you guys think?

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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 29th, 01, 08:13 AM
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Just thinking outloud here what if you did what Mark said except out of metal tubing spot weld a couple of ears on it to mount inbetween the firewall and brake/clutch support/hanger thing.

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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 29th, 01, 09:21 AM Thread Starter
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David,
That was what i was thinking!
Do you think using a vacuum bleeder would help? That usually sppeds up the 'normal' bleeding a lot.

Also, do you know when they started using that kind od MC? Any way to identify one just by looking at it? I noticed a couple of manual s10s in the yard just this week, so maybe I'll go snag one if it's the right kind. Did they make the quick take-up kind with a slightly bidder bore, say 1"??

My car, even ith the manual brakes does not require a huge effort to stop and my wife COULD drive it no problems. I don't let her because she's never driven with that kind of power before! But remember, I'm using 11" rear disks and 12" front disks.

Mark and Sean,
The flange on the push rod I have is actually just a thicker stamper sheetmetal thing that is on the pushrd, but looks real similar to the shape of the pushrod boot. In fact, the boot actually slips over the flange after the flange has been pushed onto the MC. My friend has a digital camara I'll try to borrow later today and post a picture.

Had anyone here got anywhere on the CBB for B-body spindles? I know someone was trying to cut down a rotor to us as a hub for a Corvette rotor, But all the rotors I have tried have too much offset towards the outside. Unless someone knows of a Corvette rotor that has a pretty deep offset?

Thanks,
Bill C.
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 29th, 01, 11:16 AM
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You would need some very reliable way to hold the pushrod in position with the rear piston. the piston has just a dimple where the pushrod goes.
The Master cyl looks like any third gen pickup or mid size passenger car.
Ihave one off an 81 half ton pickup that is a 1" bore with the larger rear piston and it has a separate bleeder at the rearmost piston bore to bleed it.
My 92 full size Blazer has it too.
The aluminum body get's visibly bigger on the outside rear portion where the larger rear piston is.

I'd like to see one from a manual application to see what is done to them to hold the pushrod. If you can find one, please let me know how it's done.
I've seen some Girling racing master cyls that have a washer behind the rear snap ring that holds the pushrod from moving away from the proper position.
There is very little room to drill the rear hole deeper.

David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page
First Gen Suspension Page
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Chev 350 Can-Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 12-29-2001).]
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 29th, 01, 12:06 PM
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for the pushrod, i think i found something on the morrison site that might help. they sell their master cylinders as a kit, which comes with the mc, pushrod, and a guide/boot. see it here http://www.artmorrison.com/images/98-45d.jpg . i don't know if this will be any help for those wondering, but it might be worht looking at. i also remeber seeing somewhere a piece of flat metal that was bent to bolt behind the master and had a hole in the middle to guide the pushrod, but i can't find it..

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355sb, vortec heads, HOT cam,T-10 tranny, 3.70 gears 16" IROC wheels
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I popped the photo in here for you - David

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 12-29-2001).]
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old Dec 29th, 01, 12:34 PM
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I'd like to get the part number for a bracket like that.
I've been told of them but haven't seen one.
David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page
First Gen Suspension Page
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
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