Help, Tubular Control Arms, I read all the FAQ’s - Team Camaro Tech
Brakes, Suspension & Steering Conversion questions, Steering & Handling

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post #1 of 66 (permalink) Old Jul 21st, 17, 12:20 PM Thread Starter
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Help, Tubular Control Arms, I read all the FAQ’s

I’ve owned my 69 Z/28 since 1977. It now has 68+k on the odometer but the rubber bushing are failing everywhere. The ball-joints and tie-rods are not even showing signs of wear but the rubber boots are crumbling from an infestation of Oxygenated Rubber Mites.

I’ve heard Speed Tech Tubular control arms are the best and great to look at, but the expense is beyond my means today.
I’ve seen ad’s on eBay but have little trust in these sellers to be 100% truthful.

A seller (classic_performance_cpp) on eBay looks decent and are supposedly made in the USA,,, but word of mouth speaks louder to me and that’s what I’m looking for here.

The control arms are the main issued I’d like to confront and retain my original spindles and brakes and just maybe replace the subframe bushings with Speed Tech - Aluminum Solid Body Mounts.

Any suggestions
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post #2 of 66 (permalink) Old Jul 21st, 17, 01:12 PM
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CCP - chinese crap parts
Made in usa means assembled in usa
Manufactured in china
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post #3 of 66 (permalink) Old Jul 21st, 17, 04:00 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Help, Tubular Control Arms, I read all the FAQ’s

Quote:
Originally Posted by stamatisg1977 View Post
CCP - chinese crap parts
Made in usa means assembled in usa
Manufactured in china
Odd, Team Camaro has their Ad's from ClassicProform.com, CPP not CCP flying on the side bars.
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post #4 of 66 (permalink) Old Jul 21st, 17, 04:18 PM
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Re: Help, Tubular Control Arms, I read all the FAQ’s

You could put Delrin bushings in your stock control arms...

https://www.summitracing.com/search/...t/model/camaro

Don
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post #5 of 66 (permalink) Old Jul 21st, 17, 05:31 PM
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Re: Help, Tubular Control Arms, I read all the FAQ’s

If it is a real Z replace with stock style parts, otherwise people will wonder??
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post #6 of 66 (permalink) Old Jul 21st, 17, 05:33 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Help, Tubular Control Arms, I read all the FAQ’s

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Originally Posted by dhutton View Post
You could put Delrin bushings in your stock control arms...

https://www.summitracing.com/search/...t/model/camaro

Don
I'm hoping to increase positive caster. From what I've read stock arms are very limited in this area.
The Delrin bushings are nice. MWD has them with steel shells.
Delrin is strong I have a few gears on my lathe made of Delrin to cut noise and they have been in operation for 8 years now.
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post #7 of 66 (permalink) Old Jul 21st, 17, 07:02 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Help, Tubular Control Arms, I read all the FAQ’s

Quote:
Originally Posted by john68 View Post
If it is a real Z replace with stock style parts, otherwise people will wonder??
You mean to say people would doubt the Cowl Tag - X77 because I wanted better handling at my old age.
I’m 22 in the first photos of my Z and now I'm 62.

I bought the car in the days when people wanted Muscle Cars and never saw or heard of tribute cars.
First time ever drove it was a friend’s Lime Green Plymouth Duster 340, 4spd. He installed an aftermarket hot cam a sixpack manifold, 10:1 pistons, Dough Thorley headers, 2” Exh and Thrush mufflers.
I was hooked on power; the DMV instructor was perspiring profusely when I turned the key. He only said first time, right! I was 17 in the US Navy; my hands were wetting the stick and wheel.
When I hit Interstate 10 and opened the throttle he turned pale. Upon returning he ran into the Bldg saying “you passed” and disappeared? I don’t think he enjoyed the power of being pinned to a seat, Oh well.

Anyways I have years of photos of me and my Z/28 and the Cowl Tag still says X77.
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post #8 of 66 (permalink) Old Jul 21st, 17, 09:42 PM
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Re: Help, Tubular Control Arms, I read all the FAQ’s

I just installed Helix upper and lower control arms, ProForged ball joints, tie rods, and ends. I used the tall spec upper ball joints. I already had Hotchkis 2" lowering springs, so the car sat too low. Added Global West coil 3/4" spring pocket spacers and its sitting nice again. Just had it aligned using specs geared towards better handling. It's really much improved, and I did upgrade to a quicker steering box out of a 96 JGC. Not quite '84 IROC but close enough. Helwig sway bars are next.

The Helix arms are CAD designed in the USA and yes... manufactured in China. Have to say they look excellent, and I actually have talked with their sales/tech people. So they're a step above eBay no-name stuff, and yeah they cost a little more. I wanted the tall BJs, so I pulled all their included BJs and used ProForged, a company I know is top notch.

My car is a restomod, I'm not concerned about authenticity, I'm way older than you John... and like you I just want to enjoy it (and i am).😎
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post #9 of 66 (permalink) Old Jul 21st, 17, 11:44 PM
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Re: Help, Tubular Control Arms, I read all the FAQ’s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortez69Z28nut View Post
You mean to say people would doubt the Cowl Tag - X77 because I wanted better handling at my old age.
I’m 22 in the first photos of my Z and now I'm 62.

I bought the car in the days when people wanted Muscle Cars and never saw or heard of tribute cars.
First time ever drove it was a friend’s Lime Green Plymouth Duster 340, 4spd. He installed an aftermarket hot cam a sixpack manifold, 10:1 pistons, Dough Thorley headers, 2” Exh and Thrush mufflers.
I was hooked on power; the DMV instructor was perspiring profusely when I turned the key. He only said first time, right! I was 17 in the US Navy; my hands were wetting the stick and wheel.
When I hit Interstate 10 and opened the throttle he turned pale. Upon returning he ran into the Bldg saying “you passed” and disappeared? I don’t think he enjoyed the power of being pinned to a seat, Oh well.

Anyways I have years of photos of me and my Z/28 and the Cowl Tag still says X77.
I've never understood folks who come to a site asking for advice, and then argue with that advice. Why not listen respectfully, and then do whatever you want to do, rather than argue?

And if you go tubular arms (which will only help with caster (and then only LCAs, not UCAs) - not camber) keep the factory parts, so they can be re-installed by the next owner. Aluminum subframe bushings are a step in the right direction - maybe do a little research before you buy into the hype and decide that tubular control arms are the solution you're looking for.
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post #10 of 66 (permalink) Old Jul 22nd, 17, 07:05 AM
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Re: Help, Tubular Control Arms, I read all the FAQ’s

My understanding is that ALL CPP parts are manufactured in China, and with very little to NO engineering involved. Currently there are MANY cases of their steering arm balls coming off/out of the arms.... New Zealand aftermarket parts organization prohibits the chinese tilt columns from being sold/used in that country. Unfortunately, the US seems to have no such organization which polices aftermarket suppliers, even for safety related items!

bottom line when buying offshore parts: BEWARE..

PS. re the comment about 'X77' on the cowl tag and aftermarket parts.. I have a question: "WHY would anyone care if X77/X33/etc was on the cowl tag IF the original parts were not in place???"
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post #11 of 66 (permalink) Old Jul 22nd, 17, 07:15 AM
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Re: Help, Tubular Control Arms, I read all the FAQ’s

You can use delrin body mounts that are solid but not as harsh as solid.

There have been scores of discussions about the Ebay/CPP tubulars. Although many warn of poor quality metal and welds there have been no documented structural failures posted by anyone.

I just did an LS swap for a member that has the CPP arms in his 68 and has not had any issues. think they were installed a couple years ago.

It appears that most bad reviews are from guys that never used them and the people that have them are OK.

This is just my personal observation. I'm not endorsing them as I personally have not used them.

The main issue seems to be the quality of the Ball Joints. Many people use them and change the ball joints.

Do some further searches and see what you find.
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post #12 of 66 (permalink) Old Jul 22nd, 17, 08:08 AM
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Re: Help, Tubular Control Arms, I read all the FAQ’s

I was in the same situation a few years ago.... what brand of tubular control arms to get. I read all of the posts, and researched several different companies. I wanted to get the most bang for my buck, and not worry about the parts I selected.

In the end, I went with the Global West Tubular upper control arms with delrin bushings (added caster gains), and changed the provided upper ball joints to the Proforged tall ball joints (neg camber gains). To help save money, I used my stock lower control arms, but installed Global West Del-a-lum bushings in them... along with new lower Proforged ball joints.

Personally, I did not like the design of the upper control arms with the inserts installed in the cross shafts. I am sure the control arms with inserts are fine... I just wanted tubular upper control arms with solid cross shafts.

I also installed new "taller" tie rod ends to help with bump steer. Basically, I just followed the test results that David Pozzi provided. I used modern front end alignment specs, and my car handles great!

I can also say that Global West is a GREAT company to work with if you have any questions or issues (I do not work for Global West).
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post #13 of 66 (permalink) Old Jul 22nd, 17, 09:14 AM
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Re: Help, Tubular Control Arms, I read all the FAQ’s

In this day and age there are many ways to go to improve the handling. In my opinion, if you are just looking for tighter handling with less body lean on the street, find some NOS upper and lower control arms (if you are not sure of the condition of your originals), put taller upper ball joints on them, aluminum subframe spacers, subframe connectors, and good shocks like Konis. This is coming from a guy who spent the dough on the SPC upper and lower tubulars and all the rest. Total overkill for what I do with the car. If you're going to buy tubular arms, SPC, Global West, DSE, and Hotchkiss are the ones to buy. They do there own research, they make their own arms out of AMERICAN steel tubing, and they offer different stages kits. Be honest with what you intend to to with the car. The biggest improvements will be the things you can do to simulate a full frame car (subframe connectors) and minimize deflection (solid bushings). The rest is really for the track. Do either the taller ball joints or the Guldstand mod (not both).

P.S. Nobody cares about your cowl tag
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post #14 of 66 (permalink) Old Jul 23rd, 17, 09:16 AM
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Re: Help, Tubular Control Arms, I read all the FAQ’s

If you are looking for a couple extra degrees of + caster, use an offset upper control arm shaft and bushings of your choice, all in the original upper control arm. It will keep it looking original.

If you want aftermarket control arms, buy high quality, not cheap. I cannot vouch which ones will get you the caster gain you are looking for.

A big front sway bar will make an immediate, very noticeable difference when going around a corner.

A tall upper ball joint is a nice improvement. But in a valuable car like yours with original, good ball joints, that would necessitate removing the original rivets.
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post #15 of 66 (permalink) Old Jul 23rd, 17, 05:29 PM
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I put the hotchkis tubular control arms on my 68 along with all the other parts of their suspension kit, except subframe connectors. It feels awesome.
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