Baffling suspension issue - Page 3 - Team Camaro Tech
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post #31 of 58 (permalink) Old Oct 20th, 19, 01:42 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Baffling suspension issue

Good idea

Joe G

69 Coupe; ZZ430; TKO600; 3.55 posi; 13" Baer 4 wheel discs; 17" Billet Specialties wheels; Hotchkis/Koni rear; Ride Tech front; Classic AutoAir AC and power windows cuz I'm old and lazy!
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post #32 of 58 (permalink) Old Oct 20th, 19, 02:32 PM
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Re: Baffling suspension issue

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Originally Posted by Joe G View Post
For the latest test, I'm planning to put it back together using the Ride Tech arms, stock spindles and steering arms. I am going to install new ball joints in the Ride Tech arms. Tall upper ball joints and the tall out tie rod ends as recommended. There are two tall ball joints. .5 inch and .9 inch from Pro Forged.

I've read David Pozzi's ball joint test and it appears the .5 inch does give a decent camber gain. The .9 would probably give a bit more, but neither would give the same gain as the 1 1/2 taller spindle. Am I assuming correctly?

I should add that these are an earlier version of Ride Techs arms from 2013. The uppers do not have the removable "pills" to change caster. Just what is built in.

I would really prefer to actually find something broken so I could fix it.

Joe
I'd use the .5" tall upper ball joints with .5" tall outer steering arms. The .9" tall uppers have better camber gain but increase bump steer too much unless you go and bend your steering arms down. The .9" MIGHT work ok if you set a large amount of positive caster, like 7 or 8 degrees. I haven't tested at that setting.
I'm wondering if your tie rod adjuster sleeves slipped, or one of them. Are your adjuster sleeves stock or aftermarket? The threads on the tie rod ends are not very deep and I've seen old adjuster sleeves slip. I've also seen loose aftermarket adjusters that fit tight on some brands of tie rods, and loose on others.

Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
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post #33 of 58 (permalink) Old Oct 20th, 19, 04:26 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Baffling suspension issue

Thank you David.

I have ordered the .5 inch tall ball joints and the tall out tie rods ends. New lower ball joints too. I don't see anything wrong with the existing ball joints but this is the last thing to change.
I have the Hotchkis adjuster sleeves. They aren't slipping as far as I can tell. I have cleaned and lubed the threads and screwed the tie rod ends in and out to ensure the threads were good. Maybe I should get sone new ones just in case. These are about 12 years old.

This is the strangest suspension issue I have ever seen.

As an aside, I refer to your web page frequently for advice (and general knowledge). I appreciate al the work you have done. I would not assume you would remember but we met many years ago at a Good Guys event in Pleasanton watching Mary autocross. She is FAST. Your cars are awesome!

Thanks again for your advice.

Joe

Joe G

69 Coupe; ZZ430; TKO600; 3.55 posi; 13" Baer 4 wheel discs; 17" Billet Specialties wheels; Hotchkis/Koni rear; Ride Tech front; Classic AutoAir AC and power windows cuz I'm old and lazy!
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post #34 of 58 (permalink) Old Oct 21st, 19, 02:14 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Baffling suspension issue

Latest find (maybe)

I was looking closely at the subframe mounting holes for the lower control arms. On the drivers side rear hole there is about 1/16 of play where the bolts comes through. I can wiggle the bolt around when I slide it in. There doesn't seem to be that kind of clearance on the front holes. The bolt is much tighter there. On the passenger side there is a little git of play but not as much.

It doesn't seem like that could allow much movement but it's the only thing I have found.

My thoughts: Reassemble the suspension with some thick washers on the outside of the holes. Ensure the washers are a very tight fit around the bolt. Once it is together and at ride height, run a weld bead around the thick washers to hold then in place permanently.

Thoughts?

If this is indeed the fix, I owe Jeff some virtual ice cream out there.

Joe
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Joe G

69 Coupe; ZZ430; TKO600; 3.55 posi; 13" Baer 4 wheel discs; 17" Billet Specialties wheels; Hotchkis/Koni rear; Ride Tech front; Classic AutoAir AC and power windows cuz I'm old and lazy!
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post #35 of 58 (permalink) Old Oct 21st, 19, 02:55 PM
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Re: Baffling suspension issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe G View Post
Latest find (maybe)

I was looking closely at the subframe mounting holes for the lower control arms. On the drivers side rear hole there is about 1/16 of play where the bolts comes through. I can wiggle the bolt around when I slide it in. There doesn't seem to be that kind of clearance on the front holes. The bolt is much tighter there. On the passenger side there is a little git of play but not as much.

It doesn't seem like that could allow much movement but it's the only thing I have found.

My thoughts: Reassemble the suspension with some thick washers on the outside of the holes. Ensure the washers are a very tight fit around the bolt. Once it is together and at ride height, run a weld bead around the thick washers to hold then in place permanently.

Thoughts?

If this is indeed the fix, I owe Jeff some virtual ice cream out there.

Joe
Sounds possible.

Itís difficult to find washers that fit tightly. Grade 8 washers are probably the best. Or take a smaller size & bore it larger to fit.

Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
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post #36 of 58 (permalink) Old Oct 21st, 19, 05:08 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Baffling suspension issue

Thanks David. Drilling out a washer to fit was my thought. Or I could weld the nut directly onto the frame. Sounds unlikely but it's all I have found.

Joe

Joe G

69 Coupe; ZZ430; TKO600; 3.55 posi; 13" Baer 4 wheel discs; 17" Billet Specialties wheels; Hotchkis/Koni rear; Ride Tech front; Classic AutoAir AC and power windows cuz I'm old and lazy!
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post #37 of 58 (permalink) Old Oct 21st, 19, 06:27 PM
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Re: Baffling suspension issue

Hi Joe, I've been following your issue and I'm stumped to. LOL I remember you, been to your house, like what 17 years ago? Dammit, where does the time go. Is this the blue 69 camaro? I remember it got hit in the rear? Some years back. Your suspension issue is bugging me now.

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post #38 of 58 (permalink) Old Oct 21st, 19, 09:05 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Baffling suspension issue

Hey Steve! It's been a loooong time. Great to hear from you. This is a different car than the one you saw. That one caught fire right after it was finished being restored after getting rear ended. That was a tale. Thankfully it all worked out.

I Hope you're doing well. I'm retired now.

I see your car list has grown a bit.

This suspension issue is the strangest thing I've seen.

Joe

Joe G

69 Coupe; ZZ430; TKO600; 3.55 posi; 13" Baer 4 wheel discs; 17" Billet Specialties wheels; Hotchkis/Koni rear; Ride Tech front; Classic AutoAir AC and power windows cuz I'm old and lazy!
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post #39 of 58 (permalink) Old Oct 21st, 19, 09:13 PM
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Re: Baffling suspension issue

Oh crap, a different car. A hit AND a fire. Dammit! 9 more months and I'm done too. 35 years railroading. I'm over it. LOL
Hope you can get this suspension issue resolved. What a PITA. Good thing you've got a lift. I need to get one. It's getting real hard to get back up off the ground now. LOL

67 RS 327, 4-speed, posi, done.
67 Modified, 454, TH-400, posi, under construction.
67 SS 396, 4-speed, basket case.
72 RS, sitting, partially done.
55 210 post, 2 door, 327 4-speed runs good.
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69 Cadillac ElDorado
69 4x4 suburban
59 ElCamino

Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing thru the leather straps"
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post #40 of 58 (permalink) Old Oct 22nd, 19, 12:38 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Baffling suspension issue

9 months will go fast! yes, having a lift is very convenient! That concrete is hard and cold.

I retired in July 14. I now have the best job ever! . You'll love it.

Joe

Joe G

69 Coupe; ZZ430; TKO600; 3.55 posi; 13" Baer 4 wheel discs; 17" Billet Specialties wheels; Hotchkis/Koni rear; Ride Tech front; Classic AutoAir AC and power windows cuz I'm old and lazy!
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post #41 of 58 (permalink) Old Oct 22nd, 19, 05:44 PM
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Re: Baffling suspension issue

I agree on the lift. Nothing better!

Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
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post #42 of 58 (permalink) Old Oct 22nd, 19, 06:17 PM
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Re: Baffling suspension issue

The $2k I spent on a lift was the best bang for the buck mod I ever bought.

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post #43 of 58 (permalink) Old Oct 22nd, 19, 09:58 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Baffling suspension issue

"Latest update:
After discovering the rear bolts holes for the lower control arms seem to be "stretched allowing play in the bolt, I re-installed the lower arms with just the bolts going through; no nut. This was to test the play that the bigger hole allowed. I just let the arms hang. The front mounts are tight with no play. The rears are loose and allow for about 3/8 inch of movement! Wow! That was unexpected. The little amount of play in the bolt hole translated to a lot of moment for the rear arm mount. It was the same on both sides. That would certainly change settings on the run.

I think I may have found the culprit. My plan now is to reassemble everything with my original tall spindles and ride tech arms. I have drilled out a 1/8 inch thick washer to just allow the bolt to go through. Once it is assembled, I will drive it to my favorite shop and they will weld the washer and maybe the nut to the frame. This should keep things in place.

I am holding off of changing to the stock spindles and changing ball joints because I want to prove my theory. Change one thing at a time.

I don't have a welder or skills so can't do it on the lift. The shop will unload the chassis before welding.

So what caused this to happen all of a sudden? These have been on the car since 2013. My theory is that I lubed the control arm bushings. Thees are Delrin bushings and don't need grease. I'm guessing the holes had been getting worn (or maybe they were like that all along) but the outside of the bushings had taken a "set" against the frame. When I forced all that grease in there it broke that set loose and allowed the arm to move. That's the only thing that makes sense to my feeble brain.

But at least I found something (maybe). Yay!!

I made a short video of the movement but don't know how to upload it here (if it's even allowed)

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'll post the results.

Joe
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Joe G

69 Coupe; ZZ430; TKO600; 3.55 posi; 13" Baer 4 wheel discs; 17" Billet Specialties wheels; Hotchkis/Koni rear; Ride Tech front; Classic AutoAir AC and power windows cuz I'm old and lazy!

Last edited by Joe G; Oct 23rd, 19 at 08:49 AM.
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post #44 of 58 (permalink) Old Oct 22nd, 19, 11:42 PM
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Re: Baffling suspension issue

Delrin bushings do need grease.
yellow69RS and Just 1 More like this.

Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
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post #45 of 58 (permalink) Old Oct 23rd, 19, 08:53 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Baffling suspension issue

Good to know David. Thank you. I must have misunderstood what I read on the Ride Tech website. But now that you've said that, I guess if they didn't need grease, they wouldn't have come with grease fittings on the arms.

Hopefully this solves the problem.

Joe

Joe G

69 Coupe; ZZ430; TKO600; 3.55 posi; 13" Baer 4 wheel discs; 17" Billet Specialties wheels; Hotchkis/Koni rear; Ride Tech front; Classic AutoAir AC and power windows cuz I'm old and lazy!
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