Fabricating A-Arms? or Frame? - Team Camaro Tech
Brakes, Suspension & Steering Conversion questions, Steering & Handling

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old Jul 13th, 06, 08:25 PM Thread Starter
Tech Team
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Whittier, California
Posts: 62
Fabricating A-Arms? or Frame?

I may be going out on a limb here, but here it goes! I'm taking a welding/fabrication class and would like to make new upper and A-Arms for my 68 like Golden West for example and lower ones if possible. Any one know how about i can do it? what i mean by that are the measurements, size, tubing gauge width needed, or any other info i would need to fabricate them or point me in the right direction. same applies for a sub-frame. Thanks

1968 Camaro
2010 Camaro
Cabrera is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old Jul 14th, 06, 05:39 AM
Tech Team
Andrew
 
Andrew McBride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: OKC, OK
Posts: 55
Re: Fabricating A-Arms? or Frame?

I don't want to discourage you from trying to make your own A-arms, but seeing that you are a beginning welder I really wouldn't recommend trying to build your own A-arms. (don't take that wrong, I imagine you are a good welder)

You could replicate a stock style arm but get no better geometry and you really don't know well the arms will hold up. Really overall the strength in the arms is why many switch to tubular arms and crossshafts, and the coolness factor. Most arms on the market have little to no geometry effect.

Maybe CarlC will chime in with some of his ideas.

Post this over at PT or lateral-g and maybe some guys would give dimensions and info.
Andrew McBride is offline  
post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old Jul 14th, 06, 09:25 AM Thread Starter
Tech Team
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Whittier, California
Posts: 62
Re: Fabricating A-Arms? or Frame?

Thank you for the advice and suggestion. the instructor brought it up the fabricating things, so with his background and help i would do it. i wouldn't attempt to without you guys and the experience you guys have and instructors knowledge of fabricating and welding. safety is on top overall!

the a-arms though, besides the fact they look awesome, ad strength like mentioned, but also better geometry for handling as well, correct?

how do i move this thread over or do i just copy and start a new one there?

1968 Camaro
2010 Camaro
Cabrera is offline  
 
post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old Jul 14th, 06, 09:38 AM
Senior Tech
Matt Jones
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Renton, WA USA
Posts: 2,765
Re: Fabricating A-Arms? or Frame?

Andrew is mistaken on the geometry changes that some aftermarket control arms offer. There are three arms out there (that I know of) that can give improvements in caster and camber gain. Very similar to doing the Guldstrand modification...although you can get a little more caster.

As a engineer of suspensions and their components, I would discourage any beginner of welding their own control arms. It's not the welding that I would be concerned about, it would be your selection of materials and orienting them for proper strength.

Matt Jones
Lead Mechanical Engineer
Art Morrison Ent. Inc.
Silver69Camaro is offline  
post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old Jul 14th, 06, 03:10 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Columbia, MO USA
Posts: 21,341
Re: Fabricating A-Arms? or Frame?

Me too AND I sure ain't a fabricator at all!!

pdq67



pdq67 is offline  
post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old Jul 15th, 06, 05:32 AM
Tech Team
Andrew
 
Andrew McBride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: OKC, OK
Posts: 55
Re: Fabricating A-Arms? or Frame?

[quote=Silver69Camaro]Andrew is mistaken on the geometry changes that some aftermarket control arms offer. There are three arms out there (that I know of) that can give improvements in caster and camber gain. quote]

Please explain how I am mistaken. Maybe my post was confusing.
I have spoke with various companies claiming that the geometry in their arms offer nothing over the stock arms other than strength, no changes from stock geometry-(maybe that isn't the correct word for a mechanical engineer). DSE is a top notch designed Upper control arm.

Most tubular arms, such as fatman fab, BMR's, Hotchkis do not offer better changes over the stock arms other than strength. DSE, SC&C allow changes in the geometry for better caster/camber gain. I am glad you mentioned the guldstrand mod. That is an excellent modification to consider on a 1st gen camaro frame.

Carbrera: You may check out the guldstand mod, this might be a good challenge to take on for your welding classes. It is a simple modification, and with the help of your instructor this should be an easy and cheap modification.
Andrew McBride is offline  
post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old Jul 16th, 06, 01:17 PM Thread Starter
Tech Team
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Whittier, California
Posts: 62
Re: Fabricating A-Arms? or Frame?

I know about the G-mod, and half way done with it. all i did was move the holes down and wanted to finish it off with tubular a-arms that will address the caster/camber, and just overall add better handling and squeeze in a bigger tire. i'm aware i would need a perticular type of steel/gauge tubbing for these. and all this is part of my question to see the degree of difficulty and safety i need to be aware of if taking on this project.

now i'm confused in regards to the a-arms and other than the material used and good welding, what other preperation is needed to the overall strength and quality to the materials and "orient them for proper strenght for as said by Silver69Camaro." TIG welding is the best and is always mentioned by the manufaturers of these.

1968 Camaro
2010 Camaro
Cabrera is offline  
post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old Jul 16th, 06, 02:55 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Columbia, MO USA
Posts: 21,341
Smile Re: Fabricating A-Arms? or Frame?

Look in the roundy-round parts cat's b/c they usually sell cheaper tube A-arms that are adjustable too. (Usually Second Gen. parts tho..)...

Try Stock Car Products for one..

http://www.stockcarproducts.com/

And I forget if SPEEDWAY sell's adjusable A-Arms or not?

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/

pdq67



pdq67 is offline  
post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old Jul 17th, 06, 06:00 AM
Senior Tech
Matt Jones
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Renton, WA USA
Posts: 2,765
Re: Fabricating A-Arms? or Frame?

Andrew,
Like you mentioned, DSE and SC&C do offer better geometry. Speedtech's are right up there too. Those are the only control arms out there so far that do offer better geometry. The rest do not (AFAIK). You had stated that most aftermarket arms offer little to no geometry changes, but there are in fact three that do (and replicate the guldstrand modification).

Cabrera,
Not to nit-pick, but you have shown a lack of knowledge of control arms and manufacturing process:
"TIG welding is the best and is always mentioned by the manufaturers of these."

A statement like this, to me, proves that you are not ready to complete this task. I am 90% sure that you say TIG is best is because most aftermarket arms are indeed TIG welded.

But it is not "best". MIG, if done properly, is every bit as good as TIG in this situation. Both processes, if done improperly, can cause failure. So why are most arms welded with TIG? Simple, it looks better. Many, many circle-track arms are MIG welded. It's cheaper and those guys tend not to care about "bling". In fact, one could even say the enlarged radius from the MIG weld bead can offer strength advantages.

Matt Jones
Lead Mechanical Engineer
Art Morrison Ent. Inc.
Silver69Camaro is offline  
post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old Jul 17th, 06, 07:06 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Columbia, MO USA
Posts: 21,341
Re: Fabricating A-Arms? or Frame?

I guess we are trying to tell you to do this at your own risk b/c you can get killed if something breaks at speed!!

And I have lost a front tire/brake drum at 25 mph so do know back when I was a kid!! Luckily it just dropped down and ruined the backing plate and all the inner brake guts is all.

The drum fractured at the HUB when my buddy and I were bouncing my old '52 Willis's frontend up and down after we installed the 232" Stude V-8 Stick OD in her for the fun of it!! What a supprise when she broke!!

pdq67



pdq67 is offline  
post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old Jul 17th, 06, 07:26 AM
Senior Tech
Matt Jones
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Renton, WA USA
Posts: 2,765
Re: Fabricating A-Arms? or Frame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdq67
I guess we are trying to tell you to do this at your own risk b/c you can get killed if something breaks at speed!!

pdq67
Yeah, that's pretty much it. Suspensions are supposed to be a "no failure" design, much like a landing gear on a airplane...

Matt Jones
Lead Mechanical Engineer
Art Morrison Ent. Inc.
Silver69Camaro is offline  
post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old Jul 17th, 06, 09:12 AM
Senior Tech
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Arvada, CO
Posts: 309
Re: Fabricating A-Arms? or Frame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver69Camaro
Andrew,
Like you mentioned, DSE and SC&C do offer better geometry. Speedtech's are right up there too. Those are the only control arms out there so far that do offer better geometry. The rest do not (AFAIK). You had stated that most aftermarket arms offer little to no geometry changes, but there are in fact three that do (and replicate the guldstrand modification).
Matt, can you expand on how the simple addition of aftermarket arms replicate the Guldstrand mod? The taller UBJ in the SC&C and, but not the addition of aftermarket UCAs. They only add caster. I also feel that Global West's UCA should be mentiond along with The DSE and ST arms because they add more static caster as well.
baz67 is offline  
post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old Jul 17th, 06, 09:25 AM
Senior Tech
Matt Jones
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Renton, WA USA
Posts: 2,765
Re: Fabricating A-Arms? or Frame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by baz67
Matt, can you expand on how the simple addition of aftermarket arms replicate the Guldstrand mod? The taller UBJ in the SC&C and, but not the addition of aftermarket UCAs. They only add caster. I also feel that Global West's UCA should be mentiond along with The DSE and ST arms because they add more static caster as well.
You're right, they only add caster...I apologize if I said/implied they make the camber curve more aggressive!

Matt Jones
Lead Mechanical Engineer
Art Morrison Ent. Inc.
Silver69Camaro is offline  
post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old Jul 18th, 06, 05:50 PM Thread Starter
Tech Team
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Whittier, California
Posts: 62
Re: Fabricating A-Arms? or Frame?

i'm trying to do my homework here and the material i would use would be 4130 tubbing and thicker than 1/8 and either TIG or MIG. so far what do you guys think?

1968 Camaro
2010 Camaro
Cabrera is offline  
post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old Jul 19th, 06, 06:40 AM
Senior Tech
Matt Jones
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Renton, WA USA
Posts: 2,765
Re: Fabricating A-Arms? or Frame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabrera
i'm trying to do my homework here and the material i would use would be 4130 tubbing and thicker than 1/8 and either TIG or MIG. so far what do you guys think?
No offense, but you have a long way to go. Sit down with a pencil and paper, with a list of available materials you can use. Plan this out. Do some research, then plan more. Get an aftermarket arm and cut it apart, see what they use (assuming that was designed correctly, also)

First, you can't MIG 4130. Well, you can, but the HAZ is bad enough to make it weak.

I'd use DOM if I were you. Also, you can't just worry about the material thickness. The diameter is just as important.

Matt Jones
Lead Mechanical Engineer
Art Morrison Ent. Inc.
Silver69Camaro is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Team Camaro Tech forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address.
NOTE we receive a lot of registrations with bad email addresses. IF you do not receive your confirmation email you will not be able to post. contact support and we will try and help.
Be sure you enter a valid email address and check your spam folder as well.



Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Windshield Frame measurements Ghostbuster Body Shop 0 Feb 26th, 06 12:36 PM
Rear frame rail, Can i repair this?? ray moore Brakes, Suspension & Steering 11 Oct 31st, 05 05:56 PM
broken sway bar nut inside frame Brad74 Brakes, Suspension & Steering 7 Sep 11th, 05 06:01 AM
SBC frame stand dimensions? HwyStarJoe Engine 5 Mar 23rd, 05 01:49 AM
BIG BLOCK FRAME WITH A SMALL BLOCK MOTOR???!! Kevin Imh Brakes, Suspension & Steering 15 Jan 25th, 03 09:56 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome