Did my heads get swiped? - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old Jan 8th, 08, 10:34 PM Thread Starter
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Jason
 
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Did my heads get swiped?

Maybe you all can help me solve a mystery. About 10 years ago I had my 327 engine overhauled at a shop in San Diego. Everything seemed to go fine. Fast forward to a year ago...a n old shade tree mechanic guy takes one look at my engine and says "those aint the right heads". He says "you should have camelback heads...what you got there is.." and said some other head number that I now can't remember.

This should get to the point...did a 327/210 (yes 210, not the higher HP version) have "camelback" heads. As it says in my signature, I know the history of this car all the way back to 68 (family car) and my 1997 overhaul was its first and only.

Did my engine go in with one set of heads, and come out with another.

Thanks for your sherlocking efforts here...I have been frazzled ever since this guy said my better heads have been swiped for cheaper ones.

Plain Jane 67 w/ Original 327/210.
Mods: 3spd Saginaw now a PowerGlide. 2bbl Rochester now a Holley 4bbl (4160). Hardened Valve Seats. 133k Miles. Everything else is original. Family car since 1968!
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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old Jan 8th, 08, 10:49 PM
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Jon
 
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Re: Did my heads get swiped?

No camelback heads on 327 / 210 horse 2 barrel engines. They should be # 3876775. The id on the end of the heads is a rectangle with 2 smokestacks on top of it.

Jon N

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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old Jan 8th, 08, 11:18 PM Thread Starter
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Jason
 
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Re: Did my heads get swiped?

Wow!!!! That is exactly the shape on the heads that are there....so my heads DIDNT get stolen. My car just came with crappy heads. dyno jonn, your a genius! go ahead and now say...elementary my dear watson.

Thank you...and here I was going to punch the guy in San Diego the next time I saw him.

Plain Jane 67 w/ Original 327/210.
Mods: 3spd Saginaw now a PowerGlide. 2bbl Rochester now a Holley 4bbl (4160). Hardened Valve Seats. 133k Miles. Everything else is original. Family car since 1968!
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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old Jan 8th, 08, 11:34 PM Thread Starter
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Jason
 
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Re: Did my heads get swiped?

Ok, now that that is solved, my curiosity is piqued.

Could anyone point to a good resource were I could read up on 1) what the engineering difference is between these two heads (smokestacks vs camelbacks) 2) what sort of power/performance upgrades are realized by using the camelbacks and 3) availability, current value/price, etc.
I am interested in increasing the performance of my plain jane, but I want to stay with stock GM 67 Camaro stuff if possible.
Thanks

Plain Jane 67 w/ Original 327/210.
Mods: 3spd Saginaw now a PowerGlide. 2bbl Rochester now a Holley 4bbl (4160). Hardened Valve Seats. 133k Miles. Everything else is original. Family car since 1968!
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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old Jan 9th, 08, 03:10 AM
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Steps
 
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Re: Did my heads get swiped?

I think the heads u have is hat we call power pack heads small valves small runners and large combstion chamber
Good for bottom end torque and open road cruising
If want to step up to camels (what we here call fuelies) these come in small and larger 202 valves and small and larger combustion chambers with larger runners
Each variation is a step from the powerpack going up to the small chamber high compression big valves for factory performance
Bit over simplfied
I use the early fuelies with sm chamber big valves hi lift low duration cam, small carb to run LPG

My Spelling is not incorrect...it is creative

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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old Jan 9th, 08, 06:53 AM
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Re: Did my heads get swiped?

Not mine but listed in the classifieds
https://www.camaros.net/classifieds/s...ct=23414&cat=8

67 Plum Mist Met. 408 TH350 3.08 posi
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old Jan 9th, 08, 07:56 AM
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Re: Did my heads get swiped?

Careful Jason, this is a real snowball....

I remember Chevrolet by the Numbers having a good discussion on the difference between various heads. I am looking for something online that gives the same basic tutorial.

Looking at 67 Chevrolet data from GM (someone correct me if I get any of this wrong), the differences between a 327/210 and 327/275 (L30) (engines only at this point) were the heads, the crank type, and the intake and carb. The camshaft, pistons, rockers, and other basic components were the same.

Heads - the L30 got the same heads as the 350/295 (L48), with 1.94 intake valves and 1.5 exhaust vs. 1.72/1.5 in the heads you have. The combustion chamber is also smaller, by 11 ccs or so. An L30 had an advertised compression ratio of 10.0:1, vs. the base 8.75:1. I am not up on the runner volumes of 291 heads vs. the 775s, but I'm sure the 291s flow more volume in concert with the 4bbl intake.

Crank - The L30 got a forged steel crank, while the base crank was cast nodular iron.

Intake and carb - L30 used a cast iron 4bbl intake and Q-Jet vs. base engines cast iron 2bbl intake and 2 bbl carb.

The output curves between the L30 and base motor are fairly similar in shape, as you'd expect. L30 makes peaks of 275 HP @ 4800 and 355 ft lb @ 3200 base makes 210 HP @ 4200 and 320 ft lb @ 2400. But the L30 has a "broader" torque curve, making more than 300 ft lbs from 1200 to 4800, while the base only makes more than 300 from 1600 to 3200. So, all around, the L30 with it's better heads and intake is a stronger engine.

The 291s Plum linked to would be "right" for a 327/275.

All that said, the single biggest change in off the line performance using "67 parts" would be to put a 3-speed or 4-speed back in it (I know, just what you want to hear ). The 1.76 first gear of the Glide just kills performance off the line, compared to a 3-speed with 2.54 1st or 4-speed with 2.54 or 2.52 1st. I know that's not realistic at this point, but I'm just saying...

Again, for 67 vintage OE parts for a 327, it's hard to beat the fuelie/camel hump/double humps (1.94 intakes, not 2.02 that came in some of the same heads). If you get a set of heads that haven't had hardened valve seats (for unleaded gas) that may need to be addressed. And it's tough to escape the fact that any used heads like this have been around for 40 plus years, possibly on and off various motors... you can get quite a bit of money wrapped up in something that was good in its day, but there are better solutions out now.

Something like the Iron Eagles JimM was selling, except if you don't change the cam, you probably want the smaller valves.

It's all about working together as a package. And it can definitely snowball....

Eric
69 'vert project big block/TKO 600 RR
68 'vert driver RS clone -- gone!
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old Jan 9th, 08, 08:11 AM
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Re: Did my heads get swiped?

In the spring of 04, after our new house was sotra finished, I started "getting back into" the Camaro. My car (an original L30 / PG car, which I had previously converted to a 4 speed.) supposedly had an original engine with some boltons, which included an aftermarket 4bbl intake and carb, and dual exhaust.

Performance was flat lousy. I couldn't smoke the tires dropping the clutch from 5k!

I started researching my numbers, and found that the heads on the car were 327-210's!
76cc chambers, 1.7 / 1.5 valves, pencil sized ports.

That's when I found the iron eagles (currently listed in the classifieds)
I swear, these heads alone were worth a hundred HP!
With that change, and going from a torquer2 to a perf rpm, and nothing else, I could now be rolling down the road slowly in first, and if I just floored the pedal (not touching the clutch) she'd take off, at about 2500 rpm, she'd come "on the cam" and simply tear the tires loose from the pavement. Burnouts from a stop were a simple matter of bringing the revs up to 2-3k, and sliding the clutch out. Shift points moved from 5k to 6k.

Good heads make a motor. Cams are important, but they move the power around in the rpm range. Heads make the power.





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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old Jan 9th, 08, 09:41 AM
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Re: Did my heads get swiped?

heads to consider since an intake change is needed are Vortecs. No better head for the money, unless you find a nice set of used heads like Jims.

If your concerned about looking orginal and getting heads with no assessory bolt holes like a 67 should have your going to need to find some 291's.

Found something funny when I tore down my 67 Camaros 210 H/P engine. I am the 3rd owner. I bought it in 1995 in San Diego from the second owner that had it since 1972. He told me the only thing that had been done to the engine was a valve job and hone and ring. He did all the work and all the orginal parts were still there.

Fast FWD to last year when tearing it apart...........I found a forged steel crank in it!! STD bore and forged pistons. Pistons are GM!! I could see him replacing the pistons but the crank? He told me that all he did was hone it ring it, polish the crank and replaced bearings, valve job on the heads. The heads were small valved 775 210 heads.

Joe

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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old Jan 9th, 08, 12:19 PM
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Joe A
 
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Re: Did my heads get swiped?

Eric,

Let me ask you a question about cast heads. I have a set of 3890462 for my 67 350. 194/160. I have had the exhaust valves changed from the 150's to the 160's for better flow and have added the hardened seats.

My combo has 010 code block bored .030 over with an eagle rot assy. Block has been decked .030 heads trued .0025. xe268 cam,,rpm intake with a holley 600 vac sec carb.

Question is,,,,are these heads going to work with my combo ????

Joe

P.S sorry about Hijacking this post...

1967 SS 350 Clone ( not hiding it )
Never Ending Project

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