Chip on Lip of Cylinder Bore - Team Camaro Tech
Engine General Engine Discussion.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 9th, 08, 02:41 PM Thread Starter
Senior Tech
Ron
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: North Channel Lake Huron
Posts: 3,934
Chip on Lip of Cylinder Bore

Here’s one I really hate to see.

A friend was using vice grips clamped on top of the engine deck straddling a water passage and the top of the bore in #1 cylinder in order to determine TDC while degreeing a cam. The vice grip slipped off and took with it a small chip of casting from the top edge of the cylinder bore measuring some .025” down into the wall of the cylinder and about the same amount into the top surface of the deck.

When he showed me this I was not too concerned about the cylinder damage as it was with in the Piston to Deck clearance but I was concerned whether the head gasket would seal as the chip is very close to fouling the sealing bead of the gasket.

He assembled the engine and so far no problems, but say he does develop a leak does anybody have a suggestions?

Do you think a tack with an Arc Welder using a Hi-Nickel stick might successively fill in the chip and fuse properly without the fear of it falling out or might it just blow the chip bigger? A tack on the cylinder lip could easily be ground to surface specs.

Z15CAM - There was a Viper in my Rear View
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This was my 70 1/2 Z28

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Z15CAM is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 9th, 08, 02:44 PM
Gold Lifetime Member
Don
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 2 Dog Town in West Texas
Posts: 11,154
Re: Chip on Lip of Cylinder Bore

Depends on where your gasket seals, Seems decking it more would remove the cut? Photos with sealing gasket? I have a block that had a good size grinder nick in the top of the cly, just on edge of gasket fire ring. Never any issues.

Don
TC # 349
Zdld17:69 Z/RS,306, NOR141111, 9N554XXX, 12A, X3G, 59/59,723, AFR 195,CCC282/290HR, TKO 600, BU1122B1E Owner since Dec 1968

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
zdld17 is offline  
post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 9th, 08, 02:58 PM Thread Starter
Senior Tech
Ron
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: North Channel Lake Huron
Posts: 3,934
Re: Chip on Lip of Cylinder Bore

I agree deck milling say .020" and installing a thicker head gasket would work but considering the expense and work I'm wondering if a Hi-Nickel Tack might work as it is not structurally compromised as if cracked; if so be it, I would be concerned if the tack would fall out and cause extreme damage.

As I say the chip more or less ends on the edge of the sealing bead of the Gasket. I hope that combustion Pressure and Temp does not cause the Gasket to fail over time.

Z15CAM - There was a Viper in my Rear View
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This was my 70 1/2 Z28

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Z15CAM; Apr 9th, 08 at 03:19 PM.
Z15CAM is offline  
 
post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 9th, 08, 06:30 PM
Senior Tech
Tim
 
77wolf10.85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 3,222
Re: Chip on Lip of Cylinder Bore

I would call Cometic and get a gasket that the ID is about 20 bigger.

Tim Smith
77wolf10.85 is offline  
post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 9th, 08, 07:48 PM
Senior Tech
Ed
 
BigBlock1969RS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 2,083
Re: Chip on Lip of Cylinder Bore

Any pictures? How rough is the edge if you run your finger over it? If it much more than the smooth cylinder edge then I think you are in for trouble with the head gasket. Those head gaskets believe it or not move a bit on the block surface so anything rough to catch it on is going to cause rips/tears and leaks.

Decking the block is probably the best bet, you might be able to take a hand stone and smooth it out some, but this will only work if it isn't very rough.

Ed

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
BigBlock1969RS is offline  
post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 10th, 08, 01:23 AM Thread Starter
Senior Tech
Ron
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: North Channel Lake Huron
Posts: 3,934
Re: Chip on Lip of Cylinder Bore

After reading the "Welding Cylinder Head" thread, I think pdq67 found the FIX when he mentions "Stitch Pinning" as a solution - very NICE.

I would say a L6AS Stitching Pin or similar size would make a FIX for this kind of dilemma as well. It's sure better then putting out the expense and labor for Decking or relying that a Tack Weld will fuse.

VERY NICE INDEED

Read Here: http://www.locknstitch.com/

I'm sending off and E-Mail to LOCK-N-STITCH Inc. describing the situation to get their advise.

JohnZ notes the MUGGY WELD Electric Stick. This could also work but I believe since this is a combustion chamber environment the LOCK-N-STITCH Product would be more suitable.

Z15CAM - There was a Viper in my Rear View
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This was my 70 1/2 Z28

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Z15CAM; Apr 10th, 08 at 02:26 AM.
Z15CAM is offline  
post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 10th, 08, 02:40 AM
Senior Tech
Charles
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: kansas city, mo
Posts: 768
Re: Chip on Lip of Cylinder Bore

i've pinned cracks before. i wouldn't do it in the area Z15's talking about.

my reasoning being:

1) the screws are tapered and wedge into the metal to form a seal, much like a pipe thread. you crank these things down until the bolt breaks off.

2) he'll probably have to drill into a water jacket in order to get the hole deep enough for the screw to seal/break off. if you drill too close to an edge your likely to chip off a bigger chunk by driving a tapered screw in.

3) after the screw breaks off you have to dress it down to blend into the surrounding metal. we're talking deck surface and cylinder wall. the rings should be down low enough not to hit it (let's hope) but the side of the piston will if it isn't blended perfectly smooth.

.025 inches is equivalent to about 7 or 8 sheets of notebook paper in thickness. the chamfer at the top of the cylinder wall can be almost twice that without any problems. if it were me i'd gently blend the chip into the chamfer with a tootsie roll sander so there are no sharp edges in the combustion chamber.

BELIEVE IN YOUR DREAMS
1969 SS X55 NOR added RS all NOS sheetmetal, ground up resto. 24 year project and dream. optioned out the wazoo. in one thousand pieces, and coming together finally.
Run269 is offline  
post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 10th, 08, 03:06 AM Thread Starter
Senior Tech
Ron
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: North Channel Lake Huron
Posts: 3,934
Re: Chip on Lip of Cylinder Bore

Charles:

Quote:
if it were me i'd gently blend the chip into the chamfer with a tootsie roll sander so there are no sharp edges in the combustion chamber.
That's exactly what we did with the hope it will be sufficient. On the other hand if the damage was greater or the gasket does fail I am still interested in finding a suitable repair as it is not uncommon to scrap a block because of this type of damage.

I noted that the LOCK & STITCH bolt repair is not tapered like the conventional pipe thread design which can cause stress but has a patented thread that locks or described as Self Sealing which does not stress the casting. I believe one of their L6AS bolts installed at 45 or 60 degrees would do it. Anyway, I have E-Mailed the Company describing the damage and hope to receive their recommendations.

Z15CAM - There was a Viper in my Rear View
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This was my 70 1/2 Z28

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Z15CAM; Apr 10th, 08 at 03:45 AM.
Z15CAM is offline  
post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 10th, 08, 07:54 AM
Gold Lifetime Member
Don
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 2 Dog Town in West Texas
Posts: 11,154
Re: Chip on Lip of Cylinder Bore

Tim has a good suggestion about the solid over size head gasket, for all the trouble involved, risk in drilling into water jacket, driving this stitch bolt in and risking cracking the area inserting it, I would use the gasket. Still, photos would help allow us to see just how bad this is. Is it worse or deeper than the cly opening bevel?

Compared to a BB, how much larger or smaller is this knick? Between bores? On intake side of cly?

Don
TC # 349
Zdld17:69 Z/RS,306, NOR141111, 9N554XXX, 12A, X3G, 59/59,723, AFR 195,CCC282/290HR, TKO 600, BU1122B1E Owner since Dec 1968

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
zdld17 is offline  
post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 10th, 08, 02:54 PM Thread Starter
Senior Tech
Ron
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: North Channel Lake Huron
Posts: 3,934
Re: Chip on Lip of Cylinder Bore

OK , here's the response from LOCK-N-STITCH Inc:

Quote:
We have done this many times to repair such damage. You may want to use the L4A pins which are smaller.

Thank you

Gary J. Reed
LOCK-N-STITCH Inc.
1015 S. Soderquist Rd.
Turlock, CA 95380
800-736-8261
209-632-2345
Cell 209-614-4114
Fax 209-632-1740
Their response looks very promising for this type of repair although; as I've said, we may not have to do it.

Sorry I can not post a PIC because the engine is presently in use but I have described the damage in good detail; that is the chip is located on the exhaust side (front of engine) of #1 cylinder extending approx .025" down into the bore and approx .025" into the deck where it almost touches the Sealing Bead of the Head Gasket.

Thank you all for your inputs. I know, as experienced engine builders, we are skeptic regarding casting repair, myself included; however, I'm verily confident that, if the gasket should fail, the LOCK-N-STITCH bolt will work in this case by installing it at say 60 degrees to avoid the jacket and ensure there is a locking base which would be approx 1/4" deep.

Z15CAM - There was a Viper in my Rear View
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This was my 70 1/2 Z28

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Z15CAM; Apr 10th, 08 at 03:52 PM.
Z15CAM is offline  
post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 10th, 08, 03:36 PM
Senior Tech
Alan
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: SoCal
Posts: 3,903
Re: Chip on Lip of Cylinder Bore

Would this be an indication for sleeving and reboring the cylinder?

alan
alanrw is offline  
post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 10th, 08, 04:32 PM Thread Starter
Senior Tech
Ron
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: North Channel Lake Huron
Posts: 3,934
Re: Chip on Lip of Cylinder Bore

Alan: In this case, not even close. The damage does not extend below the top of the piston at TDC and is within the Piston top to Deck Height clearance and posses no concern to the surface of the bore other then it should be smoothed to prevent a possible hot spot. In this case the edge of the chip is very close to the Sealing Bead of the head Gasket on the Top of the Deck and could possibly cause the gasket to fail over time due to the increased exposure of the combustion chamber environment.

As previously stated an oversize Head Gasket would do the trick but per say the chip was larger. My question is there a FIX without Hi-Costs and Labor for this kind of damage which is verily common.

Other then a few die hard purist bound to keep matching numbers, I know of no one in there right mind that would put out the expense to sleeve and bore a Chevy engine when there are literately millions of cheap and well seasoned blocks in perfect condition around. I'm looking at this from a mechanic's point of view, not from a purists.

Z15CAM - There was a Viper in my Rear View
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This was my 70 1/2 Z28

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Z15CAM; Apr 10th, 08 at 04:55 PM.
Z15CAM is offline  
post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 10th, 08, 06:38 PM
Gold Lifetime Member
Don
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 2 Dog Town in West Texas
Posts: 11,154
Re: Chip on Lip of Cylinder Bore

Photos?. Sleeving is another option I did not consider but I think you or someone else is worrying their self to death over this , if you are saying its not bad.

Don
TC # 349
Zdld17:69 Z/RS,306, NOR141111, 9N554XXX, 12A, X3G, 59/59,723, AFR 195,CCC282/290HR, TKO 600, BU1122B1E Owner since Dec 1968

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
zdld17 is offline  
post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 10th, 08, 09:02 PM
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 117
Re: Chip on Lip of Cylinder Bore

if your sealing bead is not on the crack then you will probably be fine, if you have a failure put on the 400 gaskets and they will seal it .
prostock is offline  
post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 11th, 08, 07:22 AM
Gold Lifetime Member
Don
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 2 Dog Town in West Texas
Posts: 11,154
Re: Chip on Lip of Cylinder Bore

There are many times when too large of an intake valve was so large , that a knotch had to be cut into the bore edge, mostly BBc that I recall. I don't think your chip is this big. So as the above post mentioned, as long as knick is inside the sealing ring, you will be fine.

Don
TC # 349
Zdld17:69 Z/RS,306, NOR141111, 9N554XXX, 12A, X3G, 59/59,723, AFR 195,CCC282/290HR, TKO 600, BU1122B1E Owner since Dec 1968

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
zdld17 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Team Camaro Tech forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address.
NOTE we receive a lot of registrations with bad email addresses. IF you do not receive your confirmation email you will not be able to post. contact support and we will try and help.
Be sure you enter a valid email address and check your spam folder as well.



Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome