This might make you choose your next OIL. - Team Camaro Tech
Engine General Engine Discussion.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old Jan 8th, 09, 08:53 PM Thread Starter
Norman
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: NJ
Posts: 26
This might make you choose your next OIL.

I found this on the chevelle site great read. check it out.



With respect to flat tappet cam protection,not roller cams.

The newer CJ version of shell's rotella 15w-40 is no longer any good for any kind of perf flat tappet cam protection,this newer version has too low of zddp lvl for safeuse with perf flat tappet cam's running higher sprng rates.

Here is the list of the latest conventional oils & oil additives with good zddp for flat tappet cam protection.

Some flat tappet cam mfgs rec against using syn oil for breakin etc and it also cost 2x-3x more then conven oil too so thats why i have not listed them even though some have god zddp protection pkg's.

Scott

================================================== ==============

(CONVENTIONAL OILS AND OIL ADDITIVES WITH "ZDDP" FOR FLAT TAPPET CAM & LIFTER BREAKIN & ALSO ONGOING PROTECTION POST BREAKIN V4 1/5/09)

A) OIL ADDITIVES BEST SUITED FOR FLAT TAPPET CAM & LIFTER BREAKIN

B) WHERE TO BUY THE BREAKIN ADDITIVES ALONG WITH PT#'S

C) CONVENTIONAL OILS CURRENTLY ON THE MARKET (SOME NEW ) WITH GOOD ZDDP LVLS FOR FLAT TAPPET CAM BREAKIN & ONGOING PROTECTION POST BREAKIN & WHERE TO BUY THEM.

D) OIL ADDITIVES WITH MOSTLY ZDDP THAT'S BEST SUTED FOR ONGOING PROTECTION POST CAM & LIFTER BREAKIN & WHERE TO BUY THEM

NOTE: IN GENERAL/ROUGHLY LOOK FOR A MINIMUM 1200PPM -1400PPM ZDDP/ZINC & PHOSPHORUS FOR FLAT TAPPET CAM PROTECTION ,
STOCK TO MILD PERF CAM'S ARE OK ON THE LOWER END LIKE APPROX 1200PPM -1300PPM AND HOTTER PERF CAMS WITH HIGHER SPRING RATES & MORE AGRESSIVE LOBE DESIGNS ARE ON THE UPPER END LIKE 1350PPM - 1400PPM . EVEN A LITTLE MORE ZDDP LIKE 1500-1600+ZDDP WOULD NOT HURT FOR A REAL HOT CAM EITHER. A FEW PPM ZDDP EITHER WAY/ UP OR DOWN IS NOT AN ISSUE,JUST STAY FARILY CLOSE/WITHIN REASON TO THESE REC AND YOU SHOULD BE OK.

================================================== =================
A) OIL ADDITIVES FOR FLAT TAPPET CAM & LIFTER BREAKIN :

GM EOS & CRANES SUPERLUBE ENGINE BREAKIN CONCENTRATE ARE BOTH GREAT FOR FLAT TAPPET CAM/LIFTER BREAKIN & ALSO SHOWED GOOD/HIGH ZDDP LVLS. (BOTH SHOWED APPROX 5,500-6,000PPM ZDDP WHEN TESTED)

NEW ON THE MARKET IS THE " LUCAS ENGINE BREAKIN OIL ADDITIVE TB ZINC PLUS " (5KPPM ZINC W-4.5 QTS OIL PER LUCAS/MFG) . BUT DON'T MISTAKE THE "LUCAS OIL STABILIZER" FOR THE NEW FLAT TAPPET CAM BREAKIN ADDITIVE WHICH IT'S NOT,THERE IS NO ZDDP IN THE LUCAS OIL STABILIZER AT ALL SO I WOULD NOT REC IT FOR FLAT TAPPET CAM BREAKIN AND OR FOR POST CAM BREAKIN PROTECTION EITHER .

I USE CHEVRON'S DELO 15W-40 WITH GM EOS OR THE CRANE LUBE FOR ALL MY FLAT TAPPET CAM BREAKINS. THEY WORK GREAT AND ARE APPROX 3-4X CHEAPER THEN THE JOE GIBS OR BRAD BENN BREAKIN & STD OILS (WHICH ARE GOOD HIGH QUALITY OILS) FOR POST BREAKIN.

================================================== ===============

B) Listed below are the PT#'s and where to buy GM EOS/CRANE'S SUPERLUBE/LUCAS BREAKIN ADDITIVE TB ZINC PLUS.

GM EOS,is the cheapest from GMPARTSDIRECT online @ approx $12.00 pint + S&H =approx $16.00 It can also be found in Jeg's listed as a cam prelube in catalog and at a gm dealer at the highest cost ($20+) unless you know somebody that can get you the dealer/wholesale price.

GM EOS PART # is - 88862586

Also,Cranes superlube engiine breakin concentrate is just as good or better then GM EOS and can be ordered from Summit with crane's moly paste assembly lube.

In Summit Crane's superlube engine breakin concentrate oil additive is pt # - CRN-99003-1 & the Crane grey moly paste assembly lube is pt # CRN-99002-1

LUCAS PT# 10063
IT'S CALLED: ENGINE BREAK-IN OIL ADDITIVE TB ZINC PLUS
ACCORDING TO LUCAS 16OZ BOTTLE IN 4.5QTS OIL = APPROX 5,000PPM ZINC
HERES THE LINK TO THE MFG SPECS FOR THRE NEW LUCAS OIL ADDITIVE:
http://static.summitracing.com/globa...tve_tbzinc.pdf
HERES THE SUMMIT PT# TO BUY THE LUCAS ADDITIVE : LUC-10063-1

================================================== ================

C) HERE ARE MOSTLY CONVENTIONAL OILS(SOME NEW ON MARKET) WITH GOOD ZDDP LVLS FOR FLAT TAPPET CAM PROTECTION.

NOTE: IN GENERAL/ROUGHLY LOOK FOR A MINIMUM 1200PPM -1400PPM ZDDP/ZINC & PHOSPHORUS FOR FLAT TAPPET CAM PROTECTION ,
STOCK TO MILD PERF CAM'S ARE OK ON THE LOWER END LIKE APPROX 1200PPM -1300PPM AND HOTTER PERF CAMS WITH HIGHER SPRING RATES & MORE AGRESSIVE LOBE DESIGNS ARE ON THE UPPER END LIKE 1350PPM - 1400PPM . EVEN A LITTLE MORE ZDDP LIKE 1500-1600+ZDDP WOULD NOT HURT FOR A REAL HOT CAM EITHER. A FEW PPM ZDDP EITHER WAY/ UP OR DOWN IS NOT AN ISSUE,JUST STAY FARILY CLOSE/WITHIN REASON TO THESE REC AND YOU SHOULD BE OK.

CHEVRON'S DELO 15W-40 (NEW CJ VERSION1300PPM/OLD CI -1500PPM AS TESTED AND AS PER MFG TOO)/AVAIL IN MOST STORES
SHELLS' ROTELLA ST 30WT (APPROX 1250-1300PPM)/AVAIL IN MOST STORES
NOTE-SHELLS NEWER/POST 1/2007 CJ 15W-40 OIL ONLY HAD APPROX 1050-1100PPM ZDDP WHEN TESTED SO ITS NG IMHO FOR PROTECTING A HIGH PERF FLAT TAPPET CAM BUT THE OLDER/PRE-1/2007 CI RATED ROTELLA 15W-40 WAS OK FOR FLAT TAPPET CAM PROTECTION .
MOTORHEAD'S 15W-40 (1400-1500PPM-PER MFG)/AVAIL ON THEIR SITE
CLASSIC CAR OIL'S 15W-40(1400-1500PPM-PER MFG) /AVAIL ON THEIR SITE
SPECTRO'S NEW 30WT/10W-40/20W-50 (1800PPM- PER MFG)/AVAIL ON THEIR SITE
PENZOILS 25W-50 GT RACING OIL(1400-1500PPM WHEN TESTED,MFG CLAIMS 1600PPM)/AVAIL SUMMIT & JEG'S
VALVOLINES NSL & VR1 RACING OILS(1200-1250PPM WHEN TESTED MFG CLAIMES 1300-1350 PPM) /AVAIL SOME STORES -SUMMIT & JEG'S
ROYAL PURPLE ENGINE BREAK-IN OIL(STATES HAS HIGH ZDDP LVL FOR FLAT TAPPET CAM/LIFTER BREAKIN/ZDDP LVL ?)/AVAIL ON THEIR SITE ,SUMMIT & JEGS
BRAD PENN BREAKIN & RACING OILS ARE VERY EXPENSIVE @ 3X-4X THE COST OF COVENTIONAL OIL & ADV AS HAVING GOOD ZDDP LVLS BUT IT TESTED LOW ON ZDDP WHEN I HAD THIER 20W-50 TESTED 2X SO I KNOW IT WASN'T JUST ONE BAD TEST RESULT AND OR BOTCHED TEST. I CAN'T IN GOOD FAITH REC THE BRAD PENN OIL DUE TO THE 2 BAD/LOW ZDDP TEST RESULTS EVEN THOUGH IT HAS A VERY GOOD REP AMONG THE RACING & ENGINE BUILDING COMMUNITY SO RUNNING THAT OIL IS UP TO YOU. ALSO,I ASKED BRAD PENN OILMFG WHAT THE ZDDP LVLS WERE IN THEIR BREAKIN & STD OILS ANDTHEY WOULD NOT TELL ME THAT INFO.

AS FOR THE JOE GIBS BREAKIN & STD OIL,THATS ALSO 3X-4X MORE $ THEN CONVENTIONAL OIL & ASLO HAS A GOOD REP TOO AMONG RACERS & ENGINE BUILDERS ALIKE BUT UNFORTUNATELY I HAVE NEVER TESTED IT FOR ZDDP SO THERFORE CAN ONLY REC IT ON IT'S REPUATION & NOT IT'S ACTUAL TESTED ZDDP LVL SO RUNNING THAT OIL IS UP TO YOU.
================================================== ==========

D) These are the latest ZDDP oil additives on the market best suited for ongoing flat tappet cam/lifter protection post breakin that are currently on the market. They are also ok for cam & lifter breakin too when used along with a good quality oil. But i still prefer GM'S EOS & CRANE'S SUPERLUBE ENGINE BREAKIN CONCENTRATE for flat tappet cam & lifter breakin because they are proven products in that application that also have additional additives to aid in cam/lifter breakin that the plain zddp additves don't have :

* ZDDPLUS (TESTED/APPROX 2K Zn & 1,600 P W-6 QTS OIL)/AVAIL ON EBAY & FROM EASTWOOD CATALOG

* CAMSHIELD (TESTED/APPROX 88KPPM - Zn & 75KPPM - P PRIOR TO MIX WITH OIL)/AVAIL ON THEIR WEBSITE

* MOTORHEADS HI "Z" (BOOSTS ZDDP APPROX 50% OR BY 500-600PPM WHEN USED/MIXED WITH AN SM RATED OIL AS INSTRUCTED BY THE MFG) /AVAIL EBAY AND THE MOTORHEAD HI "Z' WEBSITE

1/5/09 V4 SCOTT WHEATON
__________________
camaroboyy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old Jan 9th, 09, 05:21 AM
Gold Lifetime Member
BILL
 
SPARKY69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: HENDERSONVILLE N.C.
Posts: 9,352
Re: This might make you choose your next OIL.

interesting read............thanks for the post
SPARKY69 is offline  
post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old Jan 9th, 09, 06:05 AM
Senior Tech
Ron
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: North Channel Lake Huron
Posts: 3,934
Re: This might make you choose your next OIL.

Do not forget ESSO XD-3 EXTRA API Rated CI-4 Plus 15w-40 (With out CJ-4) at $3.40/Liter CDN is available at most ESSO Stations. Sulphated ASH % ZN: 1500 P: 1370

NOTE: There are two ESSO XD-3 EXTRA's DO NOT GET the API Rated CJ-4 which is 1000 ppm Sulphated ASH.

Z15CAM - There was a Viper in my Rear View
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This was my 70 1/2 Z28

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Z15CAM; Jan 9th, 09 at 10:24 AM.
Z15CAM is offline  
 
post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old Jan 9th, 09, 09:48 AM
Senior Tech
Jerry
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: NW Colorado
Posts: 872
Re: This might make you choose your next OIL.

HAs anyone tested the Rotella 15-40w synthetic for zinc?

69 Z11 03D Van Nuys
82 Z28 Gordon Johncock's Pace Car
97 30th Z28 6 speed vert 1 of 175


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
69 z11 is offline  
post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old Jan 9th, 09, 10:27 AM
Senior Tech
Ron
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: North Channel Lake Huron
Posts: 3,934
Re: This might make you choose your next OIL.

Think about what Oil is readably available ;o)

Z15CAM - There was a Viper in my Rear View
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

This was my 70 1/2 Z28

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Z15CAM is offline  
post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old Jan 9th, 09, 03:35 PM
Senior Tech
Alan
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: SoCal
Posts: 3,903
Re: This might make you choose your next OIL.

I thought JohnZ put that all to rest a while back. He stated that Shell Rotella was fine. I believe the rating to look for was CJ-4.

Quoting John:

I'm not usually this blunt, but that's complete hogwash - another "internet legend" perpetuated by folks who either haven't done their technical homework on the subject or who are hawking additives.

Rotella (or any other brand of diesel oil with a viscosity above 10W carrying the CJ-4 API rating) has a minimum of 1200ppm of zinc and phosphorus, which is more than adequate to protect any OEM flat-tappet valvetrain; if you have an aftermarket cam with more radical lobe profiles and Gonzo valve springs, you need additional protection.

The diesel-unique portions of the additive package don't affect the zinc/phosphorus content one iota; if they did, the formulation wouldn't pass the API certification required for the CJ-4 service classification, nor would it certify to carry the gasoline engine certifications it does (see photo below of the "new" Rotella T container with CJ-4 as the primary API service classification, and all the gasoline secondaries as well, plus diesel manufacturer certifications).


alan

Last edited by alanrw; Jan 9th, 09 at 03:49 PM.
alanrw is offline  
post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old Jan 10th, 09, 07:46 AM
Senior Tech
Jerry
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: NW Colorado
Posts: 872
Re: This might make you choose your next OIL.

I thought so too, but the first post seems to say that the zinc in Rotella has gone down since then?

69 Z11 03D Van Nuys
82 Z28 Gordon Johncock's Pace Car
97 30th Z28 6 speed vert 1 of 175


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
69 z11 is offline  
post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old Jan 14th, 09, 01:25 PM
Team Member
John
 
JohnZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Washington, Michigan USA
Posts: 7,728
Re: This might make you choose your next OIL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 z11 View Post
I thought so too, but the first post seems to say that the zinc in Rotella has gone down since then?
No, it hasn't - not if you use 15W40; the newer CJ-4-rated Rotella has slightly less ZDDP/phosphorus than the earlier CI-4-rated Rotella, but it's more than adequate to protect any OEM flat-tappet valvetrain (1100-1200ppm).

As I noted earlier, if you have an aftermarket cam and valve springs, all bets are off - you need an additive or one of the special high-ZDDP oils like Brad Penn, Joe Gibbs, etc.


JohnZ
CRG
JohnZ is offline  
post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old Jan 14th, 09, 02:39 PM
Senior Tech
Jerry
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: NW Colorado
Posts: 872
Re: This might make you choose your next OIL.

Thanks for chiming in John. My question is specific to the Rotella T Synthetic 5-40w. Does the synthetic 5-40w oil have enough of ZDDP for my flat tappet engine (stock cam and springs)?

69 Z11 03D Van Nuys
82 Z28 Gordon Johncock's Pace Car
97 30th Z28 6 speed vert 1 of 175


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
69 z11 is offline  
post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old Jan 15th, 09, 07:32 AM
Gold Lifetime Member
Den
 
DenRS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Sturbridge, MA
Posts: 1,417
Garage
Re: This might make you choose your next OIL.

I use royal purple 10w-30 and a bottle of comp cams break in additive. The additve is around $12, but I only change my oil once a year so its a small price to pay to keep my cam happy.

1969 Camaro 350, Trickflow heads, ST-10 4spd, Hotchkis suspension, Baer SS brake kit, moser 12bolt
DenRS is offline  
post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old Jan 15th, 09, 07:36 AM
Senior Tech
Laurence
 
Lol_uk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: London, UK
Posts: 161
Re: This might make you choose your next OIL.

Hate to chime in again on the oil issue (seems it's my hobby horse!) but zinc in Rotella is only going to go lower- I've read that diesel engine manufacturers are cleaning up emissions and that means less zinc...
If real-world tests are showing that to be the case, why would we want to take any risk with our engines?
All this great advice don't get engines rebuilt when they screw up.

I would not now use Rotella without an additive on any flat tappet engine, period.

..."you can never go fast enough"..driver,Two Lane Blacktop.
_____________________________________________
68 coupe/475ci/TH400/3.55 rear/Mark Jones motor: 850 Holley DP/Weiand stealth/9.2 comp/ Isky 280 mega cam/ 570+ hp/ 580+ Tq/brutal power!
Lol_uk is offline  
post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old Jan 17th, 09, 06:24 AM
Senior Tech
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Posts: 441
Re: This might make you choose your next OIL.

how many of you guys are trying to keep a flat tappet alive and also use an oxygen sensor? Are the additives/ higher ZDDP levels screwing up your sensor?

1973 RS Z28: 401ci Dart Little M, Littlefield 6-71 supercharger @14lbs boost, Callies Magnum crank, Lunati rods, JE pistons, 7.8:1, AFR 227 Comp heads, T&D 1.6 shaft rockers. Reed solid FT cam (240/[email protected]/.542 lift-112 LSA), QFT 750 carbs
Tokyo Torquer is offline  
post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old Jan 17th, 09, 08:33 AM
Senior Tech
Alan
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: SoCal
Posts: 3,903
Re: This might make you choose your next OIL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 z11 View Post
Thanks for chiming in John. My question is specific to the Rotella T Synthetic 5-40w. Does the synthetic 5-40w oil have enough of ZDDP for my flat tappet engine (stock cam and springs)?
I think what John is saying is that if the oil has a CJ-4 rating, you are good to go. It is not a viscosity issue.

If the 5-40 is not rated CJ-4, can you run the 15-40 which is?

alan
alanrw is offline  
post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old Jan 17th, 09, 09:12 AM
Gold Lifetime Member
"Tri-Tip"
 
Gary L's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Clovis , CA, USA
Posts: 10,079
Re: This might make you choose your next OIL.

There is one sure way to prove the ZN content. Send it to Blackstone Labs for an analysis. $22 or so. I had my Rotella 10W30 CI oil analyzed. the report was .15 ZN.

Laurence, what is your source? CJ rating is CJ rating, period. Maybe when CH rating comes out it may go lower.

Anyone interested in the realality of oil go log onto "Bob Is The Oil Guy" website and ask questions.

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." ..... George Washington

Gary,TC Member with a Lemans Blue/Ivory 02D X33, DZ, M20, MS, flat hood. Only the BU code rear end is original.

Last edited by Gary L; Jan 17th, 09 at 09:30 AM.
Gary L is offline  
post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old Jan 20th, 09, 12:33 PM
Senior Tech
Laurence
 
Lol_uk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: London, UK
Posts: 161
Re: This might make you choose your next OIL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L View Post
There is one sure way to prove the ZN content. Send it to Blackstone Labs for an analysis. $22 or so. I had my Rotella 10W30 CI oil analyzed. the report was .15 ZN.

Laurence, what is your source? CJ rating is CJ rating, period. Maybe when CH rating comes out it may go lower.

Anyone interested in the realality of oil go log onto "Bob Is The Oil Guy" website and ask questions.
Ok...your CI Rotella is the old stuff and has a higher rating than the CJ...check this: http://www.cal-look.com/forum/index.php?topic=21248.0

Do a google search on 2010 Diesel emisssions and see where this is going- Diesel oils are going to have less phosphorus/sulphur and zinc as we clean up on emissions...I'm just saying I'd rather not take any risks... so throw in some zddplus for good measure!

..."you can never go fast enough"..driver,Two Lane Blacktop.
_____________________________________________
68 coupe/475ci/TH400/3.55 rear/Mark Jones motor: 850 Holley DP/Weiand stealth/9.2 comp/ Isky 280 mega cam/ 570+ hp/ 580+ Tq/brutal power!
Lol_uk is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Team Camaro Tech forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address.
NOTE we receive a lot of registrations with bad email addresses. IF you do not receive your confirmation email you will not be able to post. contact support and we will try and help.
Be sure you enter a valid email address and check your spam folder as well.



Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome