Spring Bind!! - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old Oct 23rd, 09, 04:18 PM Thread Starter
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Spring Bind!!

My current setup (whihc I have been running for a couple of years has spring bind (an I just thought the valvetrain wa snoisey because it was a solid-lifter motor)!!

Anyway, I had gotten the motor used out of a drag car I bought for a song, so the only real tragedy is that I now need a new motor!!

So I have a block setup for a 383, and another set up for a 350 (.030over)

I am actually thinking about rebuildign the 350.

Here are the parts that I have:
350 block (.030 over) 4 bolt main
TRW forged Flat top (4 valve relief) pistons (came out of the 350 a few years ago and are sitting on a shelf)
350 Crank (stock, I think)
Stock connecting rods
DART Iron Eagle heads (200cc intake runners);

I am probably going to go with a hydraulic roller cam;

What does anyone suggest to compelete my setup to make around 400-450horsepower?

Keith
1967 Camaro
406, 10:1, comp xr282HR, Dart Iron Eagle 200cc, Holley Contender dual plane, Holley 750 DP
Muncie M-20
GM 8.5, 3.73 posi
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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old Oct 23rd, 09, 04:23 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Spring Bind!!

I've been told by a local machine shop/builder that they can do all of the machine work, rebuild the heads (with my parts), install my cam (that I provide), degree it, etc--Essentially do all the required machine work, balance the rotating assembly, and assemble the long block for $1200-$1600 (including setting the block up for the roller cam (it used to have a flat tappet)...

Is this a good deal?

Keith
1967 Camaro
406, 10:1, comp xr282HR, Dart Iron Eagle 200cc, Holley Contender dual plane, Holley 750 DP
Muncie M-20
GM 8.5, 3.73 posi
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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old Oct 23rd, 09, 04:42 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Spring Bind!!

I'm thinking maybe a Hot cam and setup that GM used to use on the ZZ430...

What kind of power might that make on a 350 block, with the Iron Eagle Ueads?

Would it out-perform, or underperfomr the ZZ430's aluminum "fast burn" heads?

Keith
1967 Camaro
406, 10:1, comp xr282HR, Dart Iron Eagle 200cc, Holley Contender dual plane, Holley 750 DP
Muncie M-20
GM 8.5, 3.73 posi
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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 09, 09:10 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Spring Bind!!

recondidering...OK if I use the 383 block/crank/etc...create a 9.72 compresison raiton (64cc heads and TRW forged pistons mentioned above...what type of cam/head build up would I need to get to 400-450HP on the stroker?

Does anyone sell a kit that comes with matched cam/valves/springs/rockers/etc that can get me there? I am looking for a hydraulic roller cam, and maybe roller rockers, but don't want to break the bank, either!

I don't know a ton about engine assembly, and what parts work well together, so the last thing I want to do is "mix and match" a bunch of parts that won't get me where I want to be power-wise!

Keith
1967 Camaro
406, 10:1, comp xr282HR, Dart Iron Eagle 200cc, Holley Contender dual plane, Holley 750 DP
Muncie M-20
GM 8.5, 3.73 posi
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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 09, 10:58 AM
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Rich
 
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Re: Spring Bind!!

If you want to do a 383,you have 2 choices.You can use a stock 400 crank with the mains cut down,stock 400 balance,flexplate and rods and use your 350 pistons,or you can buy aftermarket crank,rods and pistons.For a street engine the 400 parts arent any worse then running those parts in a 400{I use them on all 400's that I build}.You cant mix and match though if you buy a new crank,then you have to use the longer 350 style rods and spcial 383 specific pistons since usually the aftermarket cranks have larger counterweights that wont clear the piston skirts when used with the shorter 400 rods.If you have good 350 stuff,then keep it and use it.If all your stuff needs recon,then a rotating kit may be a good deal.The 400 rod setup will also clear the cam and not require a small base circle cam.If you go aftermarket with the rods on a 383,check the size of the big end since they could limit you from running some of the less expensive cams you are looking to use.You can make 450 hp with any of these shortblocks,the 355 need to be spun about 300 rpm higher at get there if all other things are equal.Good luck.
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post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 09, 11:31 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Spring Bind!!

The thing is...I have all the parts to build eithe renginre...the mottor currently in the car is a 383 (the heads at leats need to be redone, and becaus eof the poor assembly of the heads, I quesiotn the bottom end, so will ikely disassemble, and put it back to gether to confirm it is re-assmbled properly. if all of the parts appear re-usable...

I was wondering, though, what type of top end parts I would need to put together to reahc my 400-450hp goal...

Keith
1967 Camaro
406, 10:1, comp xr282HR, Dart Iron Eagle 200cc, Holley Contender dual plane, Holley 750 DP
Muncie M-20
GM 8.5, 3.73 posi
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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 09, 04:30 PM
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Rich
 
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Re: Spring Bind!!

It sounds like the 383 is the way to go.Since it was running and didnt seem to show any obvious signs of distress in the short block,you can get a good idea of how ell it was assembled the first time when you are freshening it.Look for sciffed or galled piston skirts,and overheated or unevenly worn bearings.If everything looks O.K.clean the heack out of it and reassemble it with either the old or new parts depending on how worn the rings and bearings look.If you find problems such as discoored bearings or galled pistons you can have your machine shop look at it and see how much it will take to fix.It sounds like your heads are the main issue.Good luck.
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post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 09, 04:52 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Spring Bind!!

Heads are definitely the main issue...I also figure, while I have it apart, I may as well put in a new cam (hydraulic roller) instead of the mechanical roller that is in it now...I am looking at the following kit form comp cams--what do you think?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-K08-423-8

What rockers/valves would you recommend?

What type of power can I expect froma setup like this...I had always assumed I had about 11:1 compressionon the motor as is (which I assume will remain the same if I just freshen it up withthe same parts)?

Also, while I want to bein the 400-450hp range, I also want the car to have some street manners and be "driveable"...is this cam too much?

Keith
1967 Camaro
406, 10:1, comp xr282HR, Dart Iron Eagle 200cc, Holley Contender dual plane, Holley 750 DP
Muncie M-20
GM 8.5, 3.73 posi
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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 09, 05:26 PM
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Steve
 
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Re: Spring Bind!!

That's the same general set up I am building (exact cam I picked up too) but a 406 sbc, and 10:1 pistions. I don't think that cam and 11:1 pistons will like pump gas - you will need longer duration / overlap to reduce the compression at lower RPMs to prevent detonation. But it is a very streetable set up with 10:1 pistons and depending on the exhaust/carburation/intake you are probably in the 400HP range I would guess. -16cc dished pistons should get you around 10:1

I bought a block and new SCAT crank rotating assembly from my shop, bringing in the cam and lifters and rockers and they are assembling the short block including setting endplay on the cam, degreeing the cam, end gapping rings, checking all clearances, and determining correct push rod lengh for $150 (it's a standard deal they offer), I couldn't pass it up for the price. I'm using the comp cams Magnum roller rockers which are steel and will fit under a stock valve cover fine, about $170 for the set which is a super price compared to the more exotic roller rockers.

69 Pace Car and 69 Hard top
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post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 09, 07:46 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Spring Bind!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by srode View Post
That's the same general set up I am building (exact cam I picked up too) but a 406 sbc, and 10:1 pistions. I don't think that cam and 11:1 pistons will like pump gas - you will need longer duration / overlap to reduce the compression at lower RPMs to prevent detonation. But it is a very streetable set up with 10:1 pistons and depending on the exhaust/carburation/intake you are probably in the 400HP range I would guess. -16cc dished pistons should get you around 10:1

I bought a block and new SCAT crank rotating assembly from my shop, bringing in the cam and lifters and rockers and they are assembling the short block including setting endplay on the cam, degreeing the cam, end gapping rings, checking all clearances, and determining correct push rod lengh for $150 (it's a standard deal they offer), I couldn't pass it up for the price. I'm using the comp cams Magnum roller rockers which are steel and will fit under a stock valve cover fine, about $170 for the set which is a super price compared to the more exotic roller rockers.
What's the part number on those rockers...I was looking at the following:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G6905/

I know they are not "name brand"...but I'm trying to this on a little bit of a budget...If I could pick up a decent brancd name for around the same price, I'm in...

Also, a local shop did tell me assembly of the long block was about $175.00+ any machine work performed ont he block/heads...I think I want to try the assembly myself, though a new challenge...

I am looking at a HOlley 650 DP thta I just rebuilt, and adding a Performer RPM intake form Edelbrock...

I'll tell you, though...looking at all of this, and how the pricing is running, I understand why pepel just buy crate motors...Summit has a "blueprint engines" 420hp 383 for $3100...

ALso, and please pardon my ignorance, I thought I'd be OK w/ 11:1 on an Iron head on 93 Octane? Is that not the case...perhaps I should wait until i have ht eheads off and figure out just what pistons I am running in the 383 (the ones mentioned abover were in the 350)...Maybe I am not at 11:1 after all...The car runs fine on pump gas today, (albeit with a pretty radical solid cam)...

Keith
1967 Camaro
406, 10:1, comp xr282HR, Dart Iron Eagle 200cc, Holley Contender dual plane, Holley 750 DP
Muncie M-20
GM 8.5, 3.73 posi
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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 09, 11:32 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Spring Bind!!

another question--If I rebuild, can I swap my 7 quart chrme pan on the 383 for a stock pan (if I am using a high volume pump)? I thing the pan is leaking (not the rear main seal)...someone told me chrome pans are notorious for leaks...is this true?

Keith
1967 Camaro
406, 10:1, comp xr282HR, Dart Iron Eagle 200cc, Holley Contender dual plane, Holley 750 DP
Muncie M-20
GM 8.5, 3.73 posi
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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old Oct 25th, 09, 05:55 AM
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Steve
 
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Re: Spring Bind!!

What CC are the heads? If they are 64 CC I think you are too high on compression - if they are 72 CC you will be OK but won't have 11:1, more like 9.?:1

Rockers are Comp cams 1412-16 for use with guide plates, or 1417-16 without.

Shouldn't be a problem using a stock pan instead of the 7 quart - you may have to use a different pick up for the oil though.

69 Pace Car and 69 Hard top
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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old Oct 25th, 09, 07:03 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Spring Bind!!

Pretty sure the ehads are the 64CC variety--I suppose I'll know more once I pull it apart...

If I reassemble as is (same heads, same short block, will I still run into compression problems withthe new cam, do yo uthink...I have not run into problems with detonaton yet, with the setup as is, but then again, the cam may have significantly more overlap!

Keith
1967 Camaro
406, 10:1, comp xr282HR, Dart Iron Eagle 200cc, Holley Contender dual plane, Holley 750 DP
Muncie M-20
GM 8.5, 3.73 posi
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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old Oct 25th, 09, 07:21 AM
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Steve
 
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Re: Spring Bind!!

it's probably the cam the prevents problems with the overlap - but you can buy those heads in 3 different combustion chamber sizes too. I think you will have too much compression if they are 64cc heads to run pump gas with that cam - but could be wrong - if look at the casting number you can probably look up the heads on Dart's website and find out what Cc they are for sure.

69 Pace Car and 69 Hard top
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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old Oct 25th, 09, 01:16 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Spring Bind!!

OK...after lookig at a couple of things, I may want a second opinion before I tear into the motor to replace the tope end!

I won't get into the details that are making me quesiotn tthe shop's expertise, but I have my reservations after looking at a couple of things.

Anyway--pleaselet me know your thoughts:

Cylinder #2--is this actually "sprring bind" on the #2 cylinder intake valve?

Herae are photos of the rest of the valvetrain passenegr, and driver side respectively:



The shop had also noted a couple of other problems, stating that the "retainers" are not of sufficient size for the springs--what he pointed out was that the "clip" is only about 1/2 the circumference of the spring itself...best visible in the photos of the #2 cylinder.

Thosuhgts--does this motor need a new top end?

Is it definitely a "solid lifter cam (can you tell buy the beefy spring size)?

Also, the guy told me that it is extremely unsual to see rockers of two different colors (although they are blue on the intake and Red on the exhaust)--is he correct?

Thank You so much in advance...I'd rather not spend the $$$ if I do not have to, but also don't want to destroy a motor/heads that are currrently rebuildable by driving it...

Keith
1967 Camaro
406, 10:1, comp xr282HR, Dart Iron Eagle 200cc, Holley Contender dual plane, Holley 750 DP
Muncie M-20
GM 8.5, 3.73 posi
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