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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old Feb 6th, 10, 12:17 PM Thread Starter
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Charlie
 
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406

I have an opportunity to purchase a 406 with billet rods, billet crank and flat top pistons. It does not come with an intake or carb, but I have all that. The price is $2000. I was looking in Summit and the price for just a balanced billet rotating assembly is $1900. This is fully assembled and ready to go. It has a set of standard GM heads on it, but I am going to use my AFR heads. I may try the dual plane Performer RPM Q-Jet intake and Q-Jet I have and see how she runs. I would think the Performer RPM should work good on this motor. I am going to have to also get a harmonic damper so now would be the time to get a Fluidampr and an aluminum fw. What do you guys think? Thanks.

Charlie Knudsen 67 Camaro RS/SS 350 TKO 600, 4.10's, AFR 195 Street Heads, Comp 270H, Rhoads Lifters, Crane Ignition, Pertronix Dizzy, Performer RPM Q-Jet, Heavily Modified Q-Jet, Hooker Comp Headers, MagnaFlow 2 1/2", 144 Decibles(Alpine CDA-7998 Head Unit, RF X7 and RF 750X Amps, MB Quart Mid's & High's, Kicker L7 12" Solo Barics)
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old Feb 6th, 10, 07:15 PM
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Re: 406

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Originally Posted by 67CamaroRS/SS View Post
I have an opportunity to purchase a 406 with billet rods, billet crank and flat top pistons. It does not come with an intake or carb, but I have all that. The price is $2000. I was looking in Summit and the price for just a balanced billet rotating assembly is $1900. This is fully assembled and ready to go. It has a set of standard GM heads on it, but I am going to use my AFR heads. I may try the dual plane Performer RPM Q-Jet intake and Q-Jet I have and see how she runs. I would think the Performer RPM should work good on this motor. I am going to have to also get a harmonic damper so now would be the time to get a Fluidampr and an aluminum fw. What do you guys think? Thanks.
Sounds like a good deal. Is the engine internally balanced or externally balanced? If it is internally balanced, you could use the balancer and flywheel from your 350. I have read a lot of mixed reviews on the aluminum flywheels. Do you plan on putting a solid flat tappet or solid roller cam in the 406? The aluminum flywheel will help with winding up faster, but it will lose rpm faster too. I would use a 30-40 lb billet steel flywheel. The extra rotating mass will help get the car off the line faster. I opted to save a few dollars on my build when I chose to run an ATI super street damper based on my builders recommendation. He said that there is no need for the super expensive high rpm dampers unless you plan to build an engine that is intended only for the track and will see prolonged/sustained periods over 6,000 rpm.

Instead of spending a good deal of money on both of these items, I would really research camshafts and put a roller setup in it. I think you should definitely try out your current intake/carb setup on the 406 before you spend money on a new setup. What you have may meet your expectations, and it will save you money for more important things, like gas and some rear tires.

1967 Camaro SS: 406 sbc, 522hp/514 ft lbs, Doug's 1 3/4" headers, M20, posi, 3.73's, vintage air gen IV, IROC steering box, Comp Eng. weld-in sfc's & traction bars, chrome US Mags

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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old Feb 8th, 10, 07:48 AM Thread Starter
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Re: 406

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Originally Posted by 67SS&99SS View Post
Sounds like a good deal. Is the engine internally balanced or externally balanced? If it is internally balanced, you could use the balancer and flywheel from your 350. I have read a lot of mixed reviews on the aluminum flywheels. Do you plan on putting a solid flat tappet or solid roller cam in the 406? The aluminum flywheel will help with winding up faster, but it will lose rpm faster too. I would use a 30-40 lb billet steel flywheel. The extra rotating mass will help get the car off the line faster. I opted to save a few dollars on my build when I chose to run an ATI super street damper based on my builders recommendation. He said that there is no need for the super expensive high rpm dampers unless you plan to build an engine that is intended only for the track and will see prolonged/sustained periods over 6,000 rpm.

Instead of spending a good deal of money on both of these items, I would really research camshafts and put a roller setup in it. I think you should definitely try out your current intake/carb setup on the 406 before you spend money on a new setup. What you have may meet your expectations, and it will save you money for more important things, like gas and some rear tires.
The motor is externally balanced. You know it's funny you mentioned the aluminum FW. I was going to do an aluminum FW when I did my tranny conversion, but I was told that aluminum is for racing, PERIOD. Come to find out, I have the perfect setup for an aluminum FW. I run 4.10's and a tko600. I am now being told it is the combo of parts that determines whether or not you can run an aluminum FW. Jody from Jody's transmissions(member here) and quite a few others here have said I am the perfect candidate for an aluminum FW. As for the cam, it will be a hydraulic roller. You say you run an AIT Super Street Damper? What is it made of? I have been told that you need to run a fluid style damper with an aluminum FW, but one person on here said he doesn't and he hasn't had any issues. I have no problem spending the extra money, IF IT'S NECESSARY, but if not, then I will save said money for the tires and gas. This is going to be a street pounder so the need for, like you said, sustained top end is not necessary, but I would like to be able to take her to the track to see what she'll do. The guy said with my heads(AFR 195's), she should make in the neighborhood of 600-650hp. I watched a very interesting You-Tube clip on intakes and the single plane just barely edged out the dual plane at the very top end and I mean just barely. I am talking by like 10-15hp. Everywhere else, the dual plane was better or the same. Down low, it stomped the dual plane and this being a street fighter, I want all the low end I can get. It should make at least 550ftlbs, maybe more with the roller. Right now it has a tappet and he said it will make the 600-650hp so with a roller I know it's gonna be more. I forgot to add, the compression will be right at 11:1.

Charlie Knudsen 67 Camaro RS/SS 350 TKO 600, 4.10's, AFR 195 Street Heads, Comp 270H, Rhoads Lifters, Crane Ignition, Pertronix Dizzy, Performer RPM Q-Jet, Heavily Modified Q-Jet, Hooker Comp Headers, MagnaFlow 2 1/2", 144 Decibles(Alpine CDA-7998 Head Unit, RF X7 and RF 750X Amps, MB Quart Mid's & High's, Kicker L7 12" Solo Barics)
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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old Feb 8th, 10, 06:58 PM
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Re: 406

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Originally Posted by 67CamaroRS/SS View Post
The motor is externally balanced. You know it's funny you mentioned the aluminum FW. I was going to do an aluminum FW when I did my tranny conversion, but I was told that aluminum is for racing, PERIOD. Come to find out, I have the perfect setup for an aluminum FW. I run 4.10's and a tko600. I am now being told it is the combo of parts that determines whether or not you can run an aluminum FW. Jody from Jody's transmissions(member here) and quite a few others here have said I am the perfect candidate for an aluminum FW. As for the cam, it will be a hydraulic roller. You say you run an AIT Super Street Damper? What is it made of? I have been told that you need to run a fluid style damper with an aluminum FW, but one person on here said he doesn't and he hasn't had any issues. I have no problem spending the extra money, IF IT'S NECESSARY, but if not, then I will save said money for the tires and gas. This is going to be a street pounder so the need for, like you said, sustained top end is not necessary, but I would like to be able to take her to the track to see what she'll do. The guy said with my heads(AFR 195's), she should make in the neighborhood of 600-650hp. I watched a very interesting You-Tube clip on intakes and the single plane just barely edged out the dual plane at the very top end and I mean just barely. I am talking by like 10-15hp. Everywhere else, the dual plane was better or the same. Down low, it stomped the dual plane and this being a street fighter, I want all the low end I can get. It should make at least 550ftlbs, maybe more with the roller. Right now it has a tappet and he said it will make the 600-650hp so with a roller I know it's gonna be more. I forgot to add, the compression will be right at 11:1.
Thats interesting about the fluidamper and the aluminum flywheel. I have never heard that before but you learn something new every day. I guess since the aluminum is less dense than a billet steel flywheel, less vibration would be dissipated through it, so the viscous fluid in the fluidamper helps absorb more vibration than a regular type damper.

Definitely get a cam with enough lift so that it takes full advantage of what your heads have to flow. When I purchased the AFR 195s for my engine, I looked at the flow numbers from AFR's site. The flow increased until .550 lift, which was the highest lift number they gave. My cam with the 1.6 pro-magnum roller rockers I used generated a net lift of .541/.544 so I am very close to the peak advertised lift/flow #s for the heads. I was debating the single/dual plane intake for quite some time so I sent a pm to Tony Mamo, one of the most knowledgeable people at AFR and he said to run the super victor. I'm glad I did. The only intake I had before I swapped the engine in was a performer, which I knew would not flow enough air. You have a nice intake so it wouldn't hurt to try it first. If you don't like it you can easily swap it out in a few hours.

I made the numbers in my sig with a comp hydraulic flat tappet and 10.46:1 static compression. The builder said that if I had gone with a roller that I would be in the 560-570 range. In your case, with 1/2 point more static compression, 600 isn't unrealistic with the right cam, intake/carb. I think to make 600 you will have to spin it to 6500-7000, but I could be wrong.

Personally, I think the power I have right now is plenty for a street car. It would be hard to get much more than that to hook up on the street. What kind of suspension mods have you done to your car? Mine tracks straight and hooks up well with the subframes, multi-leafs and traction bars.

here is the info on the damper from ATI's site.

http://www.atiracing.com/products/da...reet-chevy.htm

1967 Camaro SS: 406 sbc, 522hp/514 ft lbs, Doug's 1 3/4" headers, M20, posi, 3.73's, vintage air gen IV, IROC steering box, Comp Eng. weld-in sfc's & traction bars, chrome US Mags

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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old Feb 9th, 10, 09:22 AM Thread Starter
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Charlie
 
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Re: 406

I did not know about the difference in dampers myself other than there being fluid in 1 and not the other. Some say the fluid is not necessary for an aluminum FW and others say it is so I will be doing A LOT of research before I buy a damper.

As for the intake, I am going to try to locate the You Tube clip about intakes and link it here. If nothing else, it's a great info clip. In the RPM range I will operate in, the RPM outperformed the single plane until it got to the upper revs. I think it wasn't until somewhere around 5500-6000rpm that the single plane began to take over and with a street car you rarely, if ever, see 5500rpm.

I also saw when I was ordering my heads the flow numbers stopping at 550" of lift. Now, is that because the heads ran out or was that just where they decided to stop for the street head? That may be an interesting question for Tony. I can't see them stopping at 550", but maybe they do, but then again, I also don't see a street car needing more than 550" of lift anyway. I like Comp cams. I have had really good results with the current Magnum 270H I am currently running. I got this cam because it was the largest cam I could run with a stock converter. Since then I have gone to the TKO600 so it's time to up the cam specs a bit. I want something with a little more aggresive idle. I don't need to worry about vacuum for my brakes as I run hydroboost. In fact, the only thing I need vacuum for is to keep my metering rods down during idle and cruise. Other than that, I don't need vacuum for any accessories. The numbers you made(510hp/506ftlbs), was that at the flywheel or the wheels?

My suspension is made up of a mono leaf, but they are graphite leaves from Corvette Brakes, traction bars and frame connectors. Future plans are for a G-Bar or a Quadra-Link. Like you said, 500hp/500ftlbs will be a BLAST on the street. Can you break the tires loose in 3rd? Right now I can stab the pedal in 2nd and the tires will spin. Not much, but some. I want to be able to break them loose in 3rd. Not just a chirp, but more like a little smoking. I drive my car A LOT so the car still needs to be streetable. I think with the standard tranny, it will be much more forgiving than if it were an auto.

Charlie Knudsen 67 Camaro RS/SS 350 TKO 600, 4.10's, AFR 195 Street Heads, Comp 270H, Rhoads Lifters, Crane Ignition, Pertronix Dizzy, Performer RPM Q-Jet, Heavily Modified Q-Jet, Hooker Comp Headers, MagnaFlow 2 1/2", 144 Decibles(Alpine CDA-7998 Head Unit, RF X7 and RF 750X Amps, MB Quart Mid's & High's, Kicker L7 12" Solo Barics)
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old Feb 9th, 10, 04:04 PM
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Re: 406

I would like to see that video, please do post it.

As for the heads, I would assume that is were they stop showing significant flow (.550"). I see no other reason why they would stop showing flow numbers, but that would be a good question for Tony like you mentioned.

My numbers were flywheel hp. If it is over 50* outside, my car will hook from a 3,000 rpm roll in 1st gear with my suspension and 255/60/15 BFG Radial T/As. I like that. Spinning is fun for a while but it gets old went you really want to hook and go. My setup is very streetable. I can drive it anywhere really w/o problems.

My advice on suspension would be to get a cal-trac setup with their split monoleaf springs when you upgrade. I put this setup on my Cuda and it was night and day difference. The car used to get pretty loose 1st-3rd gear with the stock suspension, (340, 4 speed, 4.10 dana). Now it hooks and goes like my 67. The ride quality was sacrificed some but its not unbearable.

1967 Camaro SS: 406 sbc, 522hp/514 ft lbs, Doug's 1 3/4" headers, M20, posi, 3.73's, vintage air gen IV, IROC steering box, Comp Eng. weld-in sfc's & traction bars, chrome US Mags

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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old Feb 9th, 10, 07:11 PM
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Re: 406

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Originally Posted by 67SS&99SS View Post
As for the heads, I would assume that is were they stop showing significant flow (.550"). I see no other reason why they would stop showing flow numbers, but that would be a good question for Tony like you mentioned.

If you're talking about the AFR-195's, the flow chart stops there because the heads as built are set up for 0.600" MAX lift.

I'm having a Dart 400 built as we speak with those heads. I'm doing a relatively mild cam as the car is 100% street driven and has a 3.42 rear with TKO-600. The builder said I could come down when they dyno tune it so I'm thinking of video taping it.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old Feb 9th, 10, 11:35 PM
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Re: 406

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If you're talking about the AFR-195's, the flow chart stops there because the heads as built are set up for 0.600" MAX lift.

I'm having a Dart 400 built as we speak with those heads. I'm doing a relatively mild cam as the car is 100% street driven and has a 3.42 rear with TKO-600. The builder said I could come down when they dyno tune it so I'm thinking of video taping it.
Yea the 195 eliminators. Are you putting a roller cam in yours? Definitely film the tuning process. Ask questions too while your filming so you got the answers on tape for reference, lol. I filmed my dyno too. It was the first time I had seen a motor run on a dyno in person. Pretty cool stuff.

View Video on FQuick

1967 Camaro SS: 406 sbc, 522hp/514 ft lbs, Doug's 1 3/4" headers, M20, posi, 3.73's, vintage air gen IV, IROC steering box, Comp Eng. weld-in sfc's & traction bars, chrome US Mags

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Last edited by 67SS&99SS; Feb 9th, 10 at 11:48 PM.
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old Feb 9th, 10, 11:43 PM
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Re: 406

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Originally Posted by 67CamaroRS/SS View Post
The motor is externally balanced. You know it's funny you mentioned the aluminum FW. I was going to do an aluminum FW when I did my tranny conversion, but I was told that aluminum is for racing, PERIOD. Come to find out, I have the perfect setup for an aluminum FW. I run 4.10's and a tko600. I am now being told it is the combo of parts that determines whether or not you can run an aluminum FW. Jody from Jody's transmissions(member here) and quite a few others here have said I am the perfect candidate for an aluminum FW.
An aluminum flywheel will be a distinct advantage over a heavy steel flywheel anytime the clutch is engaged. If you are going to sidestep the clutch at some high rpm, there will be some advantage to the stored energy of a steel flywheel, but for accelerating and decelerating with the clutch engaged, an aluminum flywheel is the way to go.

"For those that will fight for it...FREEDOM ...has a flavor the protected shall never know."
Semper Fi! L/Cpl Edwin L. "Tim" Craft, B Co 3rd AT's, Khe Sanh Combat Base, February, 1968
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old Feb 10th, 10, 12:02 AM
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Re: 406

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Originally Posted by 67SS&99SS View Post
Yea the 195 eliminators. Are you putting a roller cam in yours? Definitely film the tuning process. Ask questions too while your filming so you got the answers on tape for reference, lol. I filmed my dyno too. It was the first time I had seen a motor run on a dyno in person. Pretty cool stuff.

Oh yeah I plan on it. Yes, it's going to be a roller cam. For what I wanted, we settled on the XR276HR but the builder wants to grind it at 224/224 (instead of 224/230), set the lobe angle at 108 instead of 110, and use 1.6 rockers to up the lift a little. The Dart SHP is set up for factory style roller lifters and cam retainer. I was all set on a 383 and had paid the deposit, but then I did my taxes, got a little surprise, and called them up to say "Go ahead and do the Dart." I really wanted one of the new one piece seal blocks. He talked to Dart and said that in his experience they always run behind what they say their delivery will be and that it may take three months to get one since they just went into production. He had a two piece seal block there and I told him I'd go ahead and take it before I spent the money on something stupid like food or my mortgage.

They told me to bring my clutch and pressure plate and they'd mount them to check the balance as well. I'm also bringing my distributor and they're going to tune with it then lock it down. Then hopefully the scenario will be go back in a week, pick up the motor, bring it home, dial in the bellhousing, and drop it in.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old Feb 10th, 10, 12:18 AM
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Re: 406

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Oh yeah I plan on it. Yes, it's going to be a roller cam. For what I wanted, we settled on the XR276HR but the builder wants to grind it at 224/224 (instead of 224/230), set the lobe angle at 108 instead of 110, and use 1.6 rockers to up the lift a little. The Dart SHP is set up for factory style roller lifters and cam retainer. I was all set on a 383 and had paid the deposit, but then I did my taxes, got a little surprise, and called them up to say "Go ahead and do the Dart." I really wanted one of the new one piece seal blocks. He talked to Dart and said that in his experience they always run behind what they say their delivery will be and that it may take three months to get one since they just went into production. He had a two piece seal block there and I told him I'd go ahead and take it before I spent the money on something stupid like food or my mortgage.

They told me to bring my clutch and pressure plate and they'd mount them to check the balance as well. I'm also bringing my distributor and they're going to tune with it then lock it down. Then hopefully the scenario will be go back in a week, pick up the motor, bring it home, dial in the bellhousing, and drop it in.
Sounds awesome man. Who is building your engine? I go to school at Clemson, but I don't know many shops in the upstate of SC. The reason I ask is that I saw you were from SC.

I'm glad to see your balancing your clutch and pressure plate too. I run the same clutch/flywheel setup on my 406 as I ran on the old 350 that was in it. I didn't have it balanced with the 350 and as the rpms increased over 3,000, the vibration through the shifter/car increased steadily. After having them balanced, the problem was completely eliminated. I bought browell bellhousing's alignment tool to setup my bellhousing. Quick and easy. Mine was pretty much on the nose with the factory dowel pins so that was really nice.

Oh yea, some advice on the distributor hold down; don't use those chrome aftermarket pieces! I had got one and it wouldn't stay tight for anything. I could drive it once and the distributor would be loose. Find an old gm hold down, clean it up, repaint it and use that. Since I changed mine over to the gm piece I haven't had any more problems.

1967 Camaro SS: 406 sbc, 522hp/514 ft lbs, Doug's 1 3/4" headers, M20, posi, 3.73's, vintage air gen IV, IROC steering box, Comp Eng. weld-in sfc's & traction bars, chrome US Mags

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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old Feb 10th, 10, 12:29 AM
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Re: 406

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Originally Posted by 67SS&99SS View Post
Sounds awesome man. Who is building your engine? I go to school at Clemson, but I don't know many shops in the upstate of SC. The reason I ask is that I saw you were from SC.

I'm glad to see your balancing your clutch and pressure plate too. I run the same clutch/flywheel setup on my 406 as I ran on the old 350 that was in it. I didn't have it balanced with the 350 and as the rpms increased over 3,000, the vibration through the shifter/car increased steadily. After having them balanced, the problem was completely eliminated. I bought browell bellhousing's alignment tool to setup my bellhousing. Quick and easy. Mine was pretty much on the nose with the factory dowel pins so that was really nice.

Oh yea, some advice on the distributor hold down; don't use those chrome aftermarket pieces! I had got one and it wouldn't stay tight for anything. I could drive it once and the distributor would be loose. Find an old gm hold down, clean it up, repaint it and use that. Since I changed mine over to the gm piece I haven't had any more problems.
Thanks for the tip.

I'm using Carolina Machine over in Johnston, SC. They're about an hour and a half from me but since I used to live in Atlanta, anything within two hours I consider local.
http://www.cmengines.com/AboutUs/tabid/72/Default.aspx

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old Feb 10th, 10, 12:38 AM
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Re: 406

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Thanks for the tip.

I'm using Carolina Machine over in Johnston, SC. They're about an hour and a half from me but since I used to live in Atlanta, anything within two hours I consider local.
http://www.cmengines.com/AboutUs/tabid/72/Default.aspx
Thanks for the link. A friend of mine is looking for a good shop to build an engine for his 69. The prices of their engines are very decent. Let us know how yours turns out.

1967 Camaro SS: 406 sbc, 522hp/514 ft lbs, Doug's 1 3/4" headers, M20, posi, 3.73's, vintage air gen IV, IROC steering box, Comp Eng. weld-in sfc's & traction bars, chrome US Mags

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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old Feb 10th, 10, 12:57 AM
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Re: 406

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Thanks for the link. A friend of mine is looking for a good shop to build an engine for his 69. The prices of their engines are very decent. Let us know how yours turns out.
No problem. They said they were a go last week and that it would probably take 3-4 weeks.

Their hp numbers may look low on some of their performance street motors but I think that's because when you order one you get a written guarantee that it will make at least the hp published. The price quotes you see are based on using RHS heads but they will build with whatever you want and they'll use your parts if you want them to.

The owner is Mike Saye, a former Comp Eliminator champ, and he personally answers every email. The performance sales guy is Ritchie Barnett. I don't know if you're familiar with Barnett Performance in Atlanta, but they were basically THE mail order hot rod shop for racers before Summit got so big. That's his family. They still run a 100,000 square foot performance parts warehouse down there.


Oh by the way....Charlie, I apologize for derailing your thread by jumping in. This stuff gets exciting to talk about. That is a great deal you have lined up. I had a line on a freshly rebuilt 406 with Eagle internals for $2500 but it was in a race team's truck and the guy had receipts for the $4600 rebuild and he said the shop did all his race engines. I would've wanted AFR heads on it and probably a roller cam and in the end it still would've been a '78 truck block so I passed on it. I couldn't get in touch with the machine shop that built it to find out exactly what it had. Still think about it though.... Andy, if you want that guy's number he's over in Anderson and Lynch Racing and Machine in Greenville built it.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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'02 Z/28 vert-stock-sold and totaled

Last edited by Steiner; Feb 10th, 10 at 01:16 AM.
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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old Feb 10th, 10, 01:12 AM
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Re: 406

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Originally Posted by Steiner View Post
No problem. They said they were a go last week and that it would probably take 3-4 weeks.

Their hp numbers may look low on some of their performance street motors but I think that's because when you order one you get a written guarantee that it will make at least the hp published. The price quotes you see are based on using RHS heads but they will build with whatever you want and they'll use your parts if you want them to.

The owner is Mike Saye, a former Comp Eliminator champ, and he personally answers every email. The performance sales guy is Ritchie Barnett. I don't know if you're familiar with Barnett Performance in Atlanta, but they were basically THE mail order hot rod shop for racers before Summit got so big. That's his family. They still run a 100,000 square foot performance parts warehouse down there.
Yes, I've ordered from Barnett's before. Great customer service, competitive prices and I had my parts the next day.

1967 Camaro SS: 406 sbc, 522hp/514 ft lbs, Doug's 1 3/4" headers, M20, posi, 3.73's, vintage air gen IV, IROC steering box, Comp Eng. weld-in sfc's & traction bars, chrome US Mags

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