Will building a better bottom end be worth it??? - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old Mar 16th, 10, 12:24 PM Thread Starter
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Mike
 
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Will building a better bottom end be worth it???

Hey guys, I am looking to get a few more horses out my engine and I just found out I have dished pistons instead of flatops. Should I build a 383 stroker (#356-B13004e) or will better heads still give what i'm looking (around 400hp's) with my current combo (see sig). Right now i'm getting 240 hp at the rear wheels. Please let me know SUMMER IS COMING!!! thanks for any input.

'69 Camaro convertible, 383, 4 bolt, 461 camalhump heads, 268 xe comp cam, edel rpm
air-gap , holly 750 DP/1"spacer , msd ignition, flowtech ceramic coated headers, 2.5 exhaust w/flowmaster's, muncie m21 , 10bolt w/eaton posi unit and 373 gears'
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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old Mar 16th, 10, 12:35 PM
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Re: Will building a better bottom end be worth it???

build the bottom end strong and built the top end to breathe and you wont waste your money on it!
steel crank and good rods
dart pro 1 heads
roller cam
holley 850hp
weiand open plentum intake and a phenolic spacer

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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old Mar 16th, 10, 06:53 PM
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Re: Will building a better bottom end be worth it???

If you're looking for the cheapest way to do it I'd say rebuild the bottom end as a 383 with a Scat cast crank stroker kit and reuse everything else. That's a whole lotta carb for a 240 rwhp 350.

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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old Mar 16th, 10, 07:30 PM
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Re: Will building a better bottom end be worth it???

If your just looking for 400-425Hp I would stick with a cast crank and stock rods with ARP bolts. Plenty strong enough to handle that power level and the lighter crank is good for an extra five or so HP. This will leave some extra money for other goodies like a nice set of heads, pistons etc.

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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 10, 03:51 AM
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Re: Will building a better bottom end be worth it???

Build the bottom end cause you can add on top later.
Nothing wrong with building as your billfold will allow, but build to the best so you only have to go there once.

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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 10, 04:47 AM
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Re: Will building a better bottom end be worth it???

Piss on a cast crank!! What a waste of time and money!! If your gonna twist it a bit,which im sure you will..?? the price diff. is what 100-200 at most? ..with a cast crank you might as well put a msd stutter chip in there for 5000rpm max..price an eagle bottom end, they are not that bad at all..
Are you gonna build your house on sand or a solid concrete foundation?
it doesnt matter how strong your upper body is if your knees wont carry you around!

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Last edited by SPARKY69; Mar 17th, 10 at 05:12 AM.
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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 10, 05:08 AM
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Re: Will building a better bottom end be worth it???

I agree with Bill, went through the same thinking on cast vs forged on my 408 targetting upper 400's for HP and went with forged because the price difference was only a couple hundred on SCAT cranks. I don't think you would have any problems with a cast crank in the HP range you are building but for a couple hundred dollars why not go with a steel crank? If you decide to build it for more HP later you don't have to upgrade the crank.

Good rod bolts are a must on a SBC if you are going to run higher RPMS - stock bolts are the weak link on these, from personal experience a long time ago. If it's a 4 speed car, miss a gear a couple times and the stock bolts can get things loose inside quick.

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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 10, 07:12 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Will building a better bottom end be worth it???

So if I build the bottom end (383) how much more HP's & TQ will I get out of it, and what bolts should I replace with ARP's rod,mains etc...?

'69 Camaro convertible, 383, 4 bolt, 461 camalhump heads, 268 xe comp cam, edel rpm
air-gap , holly 750 DP/1"spacer , msd ignition, flowtech ceramic coated headers, 2.5 exhaust w/flowmaster's, muncie m21 , 10bolt w/eaton posi unit and 373 gears'
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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 10, 12:22 PM
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Re: Will building a better bottom end be worth it???

Use the arp bolts for rods, try to go with arm studs on the mains. Studs for heads also. If you have extra heads, look for something in the 190cc intake range.

Don
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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 10, 01:36 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Will building a better bottom end be worth it???

What about my cam? Should I go larger since the builder has to r & r the cam anyway, if so how large?

'69 Camaro convertible, 383, 4 bolt, 461 camalhump heads, 268 xe comp cam, edel rpm
air-gap , holly 750 DP/1"spacer , msd ignition, flowtech ceramic coated headers, 2.5 exhaust w/flowmaster's, muncie m21 , 10bolt w/eaton posi unit and 373 gears'
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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 10, 01:48 PM
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Re: Will building a better bottom end be worth it???

Cast crank is fine for 6000 -6500 rpms. You won't notice a difference in the way it runs.
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post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 10, 02:21 PM
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Re: Will building a better bottom end be worth it???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Mike41 View Post
Hey guys, I am looking to get a few more horses out my engine and I just found out I have dished pistons instead of flatops. Should I build a 383 stroker (#356-B13004e) or will better heads still give what i'm looking (around 400hp's) with my current combo (see sig). Right now i'm getting 240 hp at the rear wheels. Please let me know SUMMER IS COMING!!! thanks for any input.
240 rwhp is around 300 fwhp depending on whose formula you apply and I don't adhere to any formula on that deal as I think each powertrain is going to have unique power losses. So my question is are you looking for 400fwhp or 400 rwhp? You won't easily accomplish either with a dished piston 350 except with a 150 shot of juice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Mike41 View Post
So if I build the bottom end (383) how much more HP's & TQ will I get out of it, and what bolts should I replace with ARP's rod,mains etc...?
How much more you get is proportional to how much you spend. The sky is the limit.Heads is where the power is. Cubes makes it easier. Forged makes the rotator withstand it without becoming segmented. Fasteners need to preload at a higher clamping force than the load will impart. Compression ratio increases power by 3 to 5% per point but that is probably arguable too depending where your basis is. The block's main caps must be strong enough for the applied power and clamped so tight they can't walk. And walk they will.

imo you need more compression and better heads. The decision to go 383 vs 350 is approximately a $1500 to $2000 forged economic decision if all your old stuff were reuseable and you wanted to stay cast. Odds of that are nil. At that point the comparative costs begin to approach one another and it becomes a simple matter of deciding how much power you want.

If you want 400rwhp I would just leave your old engine in place and score a 4 bolt late model roller block and build a 383 or 385. call Mike Lewis and get a forged Scat Rotator, or get a Howards rotator. Go to profiler.com and get a set of profiler heads. Call Chris Straub 1st and get him to do you a hydroller cam and lifters and his recommended intake and find out what springs to have put on the profilers. Keep the 750 or better yet get an 830,,,,,,and about 5 grand later you would have 400rwhp.

If you want the most economical 400fwhp you can get, pull your engine and bore it to 4.030 or wherever it will clean up, grind your crank, get a set of new rods with good hardware in them already and get a set of hyper flat tops, a set of profilers and you will land right close to 10:1, and once again get Chris Straub to do you a cam and if you have some spare green do a hydroller retro but this doesn't make sense to me when late model blocks are plentiful and retro is not required you just roll baby. Some camshaft input from Mark Jones would be sweet because I think he has some Isky tricks up his sleeve. I would be sorely tempted to try a solid flat tappet somewhere slightly below 230 at .050 and as much lift as I could get and with a cast crank I would aim for bottom end so I would get be thinking straight pattern,,,,,,,so where we at in comp lingo somewhere around a 270s with 1.6 rockers. Get a Performer rpm intake and whack 1/2" out of the divider, imo if you re-use your cast crank there is no need entertaining notions of needing a single plane intake. Keep the 750 if you want max power, lose it for a 650 if you want behaviour. You will be close to 400, maybe a wee bit below. Profiler being the unknown, and the lack of a roller hurting it too imo. A couple hundred bucks spent on roller rockers is smart money imo as factory stamped rockers are a friggin joke. Any stud mounted rocker is a joke but stamped ones are the jokiest.

Good luck.

Tim Smith

Last edited by 77wolf10.85; Mar 17th, 10 at 02:32 PM.
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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 10, 09:38 PM
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Re: Will building a better bottom end be worth it???

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPARKY69 View Post
Piss on a cast crank!! What a waste of time and money!! If your gonna twist it a bit,which im sure you will..?? the price diff. is what 100-200 at most? ..with a cast crank you might as well put a msd stutter chip in there for 5000rpm max..price an eagle bottom end, they are not that bad at all..
Are you gonna build your house on sand or a solid concrete foundation?
it doesnt matter how strong your upper body is if your knees wont carry you around!
While your at it you might as well go with splayed main caps and some Diamond or Ross pistons. Get some 6" rods, light weight floating pins, roller cam/rev kit.... are we looking for 400Hp or 600Hp?

A couple of hundred here, a couple of hundred there.. before you know it your several thousand over your budget.

A waist of money is spending $200 on something you dont need and cant see and will acually cost power.

Cast cranks will go 6500 with no problem, I have twisted then past 7k on a regualar basis on a few engines. A 400-425HP engine isnt going to be making a whole lot of power past 6500 anyway.

I agree with tim on a late model roller block if you build a differnt engine all together.

69 Z/28, red/white stripe, black houndstoot with docs.
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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old Mar 18th, 10, 05:14 AM
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Re: Will building a better bottom end be worth it???

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPARKY69 View Post
Piss on a cast crank!!
Are you gonna build your house on sand or a solid concrete foundation?
Sure thing, let's spend $1500 on a rotating assembly, then drop it in a $150 production block. The block is that foundation you're referring to, not the rotating assembly.

You can reuse your 5.7" rods with the correct Scat stroker crank. Snag some SpeedPro hyper dish pistons for pump gas friendly compression. Your heads are old-school, watch for a used set of Dart Iron Eagles or something similar, they'll really wake it up in combination with the cubes from the stroke. Vortecs are a great head for the money, but you'd need to swap intakes. As many as there are on the market now, you won't be out much coin on that, either.

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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old Mar 18th, 10, 07:02 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Will building a better bottom end be worth it???

To answer a few qustions, i'm looking for around 400 fwhp's and I don't want a vortech engine because my intake & headers are new. I just want to be able to keep up with the new camaro's mustangs etc... I was going to invest in some better heads, but when I found out I have dished pistons I thought they wouldn't help much (20 to 30 hps).

'69 Camaro convertible, 383, 4 bolt, 461 camalhump heads, 268 xe comp cam, edel rpm
air-gap , holly 750 DP/1"spacer , msd ignition, flowtech ceramic coated headers, 2.5 exhaust w/flowmaster's, muncie m21 , 10bolt w/eaton posi unit and 373 gears'
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