Valve spring dilemma? - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old Apr 3rd, 10, 02:40 PM Thread Starter
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Valve spring dilemma?

Well its almost time to order heads for my 406. I decided to go with AFR's 195cc competition version. My problem is the guys at Comp cams are saying for my application and the hydraulic roller cam I want to run I should use AFR's 135# valve springs. The guys at AFR are saying thats crazy and I should stick with the 155# springs that come on the heads. I dont know who to listen to here. The cam I was planning to run was Comps
12-433-8 Xtreme Energy Hyd. with 1.6 rockers. Any help or opinions would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Curt
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old Apr 3rd, 10, 05:50 PM
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Re: Valve spring dilemma?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cg69 View Post
Well its almost time to order heads for my 406. I decided to go with AFR's 195cc competition version. My problem is the guys at Comp cams are saying for my application and the hydraulic roller cam I want to run I should use AFR's 135# valve springs. The guys at AFR are saying thats crazy and I should stick with the 155# springs that come on the heads. I dont know who to listen to here. The cam I was planning to run was Comps
12-433-8 Xtreme Energy Hyd. with 1.6 rockers. Any help or opinions would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Curt
I ordered my AFR heads with their premium dual spring, 155# seat pressure. Valves were +.100 longer to set height at 1.860" to achieve this.
Talked to Mike Lewis racing about this also, they agreed. Said most people dont run enough spring pressure on hyd rollers. Got my heads thru Mike, flat milled and all within a week from AFR. Much better turn around time than going direct.

Don
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Zdld17:69 Z/RS,306, NOR141111, 9N554XXX, 12A, X3G, 59/59,723, AFR 195,CCC282/290HR, TKO 600, BU1122B1E Owner since Dec 1968

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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old Apr 3rd, 10, 06:46 PM
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Re: Valve spring dilemma?

curt,

I dont understand why you would argue with the company that manufactures the camshaft ????????? I would hope that they would know which spring will work best with thier camshaft. I would ignore all others and do what Comp says.

Just my opinion,

Bill Koustenis
Owner
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
1971 Chevelle "Heavy Chevy" original owner


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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old Apr 3rd, 10, 09:23 PM
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Re: Valve spring dilemma?

135# for a roller is not much spring at all... Most people run over 120# with the squishy old hydraulic flat tappet cams.

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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old Apr 4th, 10, 10:19 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Valve spring dilemma?

Yeah, lots of info out there on the subject. What I'm seeing is that 155# of seat pressure would be more in line for a solid roller cam not a hydraulic. I'm not going to be going over 6K rpm anyway......
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old Apr 4th, 10, 10:59 AM
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Re: Valve spring dilemma?

How about changing cam supplier? Go with springs they don't reccomend, a failure happens then you are left holding the bag.

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." ..... George Washington

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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old Apr 4th, 10, 04:26 PM
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Re: Valve spring dilemma?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cg69 View Post
Yeah, lots of info out there on the subject. What I'm seeing is that 155# of seat pressure would be more in line for a solid roller cam not a hydraulic. I'm not going to be going over 6K rpm anyway......
Reason behind this spring pressure is due to heavy hyd rollers full of oil and no rev kit.
I ran the early and late model AFR 195 with the first set with spring pressures at 135.
Going to the premium springs from AFR and 155# seat pressure of which was recommended by my cam manufacturer, UD Harold, the head company AFR as well as the vendor of the head, Mike Lewis racing. I was pulling this motor to 6200 easy with the smaller springs but with the higher pressure springs, the motor pulls easier and quicker to above 7K rpm of which is really no use to me as my current hp begins to fall off after 6200 so whats the use of running it beyound that? . If I was using this motor other uses, I could wing it higher but , its was not built for that purpose nor was my cam hp/tq band.
Ever heard of valve bounce? For me, it was recommended by these three professionals, thats good enough for me.

Don
TC # 349
Zdld17:69 Z/RS,306, NOR141111, 9N554XXX, 12A, X3G, 59/59,723, AFR 195,CCC282/290HR, TKO 600, BU1122B1E Owner since Dec 1968

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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old Apr 4th, 10, 06:58 PM
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Re: Valve spring dilemma?

C69.A good solid roller spring starts at about 225# on the seat for a street cam and goes up from there.Last sold roller smallblock I built I put together with about #310 on the seat,but thats a whole different story.

As for this application,did you go back to the cam manufacturer and ask them what they thought about the 155# springs?Maybe they were just giving you a minimum spec.#155 shouldnt cause any damage to the hydraulic mehanism since they use the same roller lifters in small blocks and big blocks,and big blocks would need at least that much spring.Good luck.
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old Apr 4th, 10, 07:52 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Valve spring dilemma?

Yeah Im going to call Comp again next week. This all started by asking AFR what cams worked best in their dyno tests, then emailing Comp for their thoughts on the best valve
train to run with the said recommened cam. I'll try other cam manufacturers also. I just really like the power and flow numbers of those AFR competition heads.
This is the first serious motor I have ever put together and its been a rather fun research project so far.....
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old Apr 5th, 10, 07:12 AM
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Re: Valve spring dilemma?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cg69 View Post
Yeah Im going to call Comp again next week. This all started by asking AFR what cams worked best in their dyno tests, then emailing Comp for their thoughts on the best valve
train to run with the said recommened cam. I'll try other cam manufacturers also. I just really like the power and flow numbers of those AFR competition heads.
This is the first serious motor I have ever put together and its been a rather fun research project so far.....

There are other cam companies, Bullet, Howards (they just bought out Ud Harold) Lunati , just to name a few. There are a few other low profile cam companies grinding their own stuff.

Don
TC # 349
Zdld17:69 Z/RS,306, NOR141111, 9N554XXX, 12A, X3G, 59/59,723, AFR 195,CCC282/290HR, TKO 600, BU1122B1E Owner since Dec 1968

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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old Apr 5th, 10, 07:39 AM
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Re: Valve spring dilemma?

comp cams blanks are made in china and comp tells you you cant go that high because the matl. is not as hard as most quality cams.
I would go with an isky or other made in USA cam.
next time you call comp ask them what is the rockwell hardness of the cam!
comp is good for mildly modified sreet only motors IMO.


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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old Apr 5th, 10, 10:50 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Valve spring dilemma?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawg View Post
comp cams blanks are made in china and comp tells you you cant go that high because the matl. is as hard as most cams.
I would go with an isky or other made in USA cam.
next time you call comp ask them what is the rockwell hardness of the cam!
Yes I just spoke with the guys at Schneider Racing Cams and they said the same thing.
They said no problem running 155# springs with their cams.
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old Apr 5th, 10, 01:16 PM
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Re: Valve spring dilemma?

comp cams are junk plain and simple but im not bashing really!


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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old Apr 5th, 10, 02:22 PM
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Re: Valve spring dilemma?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawg View Post
comp cams blanks are made in china and comp tells you you cant go that high because the matl. is not as hard as most quality cams.
I would go with an isky or other made in USA cam.
next time you call comp ask them what is the rockwell hardness of the cam!
comp is good for mildly modified sreet only motors IMO.

I will just share with you, before I went to higher pressures, I ran a comp "austratempered" retro roller. I ran the 135# springs with retro rollers. Thats what comp recommended with the cam. After I discovered the fuel pump eccentric was worn off of this cast comp cam , I pulled the engine and also discovered that the comp retro rollers, were digging into the opening ramps on several lobes and a chip was missing on another. So that was the end of cast rollers for me. I even ran the same retro roller lifters on the new billet cam from Harold with the press on iron dist gear , with no issues but at 155# closed seat pressure.
Now its no wonder all these cams are failing. I never heard of this 30 / 40 years ago, You could go get a flame hardened, parkerized cam and lifter from Blue racer or Honest Charley parts store and it would run for ever. All in the name of ecomonics I believe. And where has it gotten us? But then , we had more zddp in our oils and 100 octane .

Don
TC # 349
Zdld17:69 Z/RS,306, NOR141111, 9N554XXX, 12A, X3G, 59/59,723, AFR 195,CCC282/290HR, TKO 600, BU1122B1E Owner since Dec 1968

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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old Apr 5th, 10, 03:53 PM
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Re: Valve spring dilemma?

So what I'm getting from this discussion is that comp cams started using cheaper materials and you can't put heavier spring rates on them anymore. I'm using a comp cams 275DEH (hydraulic flat tappet) in my SBC from '00, is that from before they went cheap?


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