Harmonic balancer help!! - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 11th, 10, 08:00 PM Thread Starter
 
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Harmonic balancer help!!

I am putting together my SBC 350 and have installed the harmonic balancer using a balancer installer. Problem, at least I feel, is the installer has pushed the balancer on as far is it would go. Now if I try to turn it any further the entire rotating assembly moves. I cannot even torque down the harmonic bolt without the assembly moving.

So my delema is how far away from the timing cover should the balancer be? I have added some pics of where it sits now. Please any input would be greatly appreciated.

Last edited by RSTING; Apr 13th, 10 at 07:45 PM.
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 11th, 10, 08:17 PM
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Jim
 
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Re: Harmonic balancer help!!

The balancer must completely bottom on the machined end of the crank snout, all the way up to the step that holds the cam gear.
I don't think your is even close.

Many new balancers are just flat out too tight. Sometimes there are burrs that will lift some metal as it slides on and bind things up a bit.

I would pull it off and inspect the ID as well as the crank, look for any binding or scratching. If you have measuring devices, check the id of the balancer vs the od of the crank. you want a couple thou clearance.

It should just go on. Tight yes, but not tight enough to wreck any tools trying to get it on and off.

I'd pull the timing cover off so I could really see if it's going on all the way, and then hone the id of the balancer until it slides right on with the tool and pulls right off with the puller.

I've used a flap sander to hone them, get a couple at home depot, the steel is pretty hard, you'll wear em out quick.





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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 11th, 10, 08:48 PM
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Steiner
 
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Re: Harmonic balancer help!!

What kind of installer are you using? With the kind that use a rod that threads into the crank and a thrust bearing, the crank shouldn't have a chance of turning if you are holding the end of the rod with a wrench. You're not going to be able to torque the bolt until you've got something holding the flywheel or flexplate. It only takes around 30 ft lb turn an engine over.

To make it easier to find out where you need to go, get yourself a piece of coat hanger or wire. Stick it against the crank gear and use a Sharpie to mark it at the front of the timing cover. Then transfer the mark over to the damper snout so you'll be able to tell that you're bottomed out on the gear, not just bound up.

If you put the damper in the oven for 20-30 minutes at 225 degrees or so it'll help some. Just get your install tool screwed into the crank and ready and some oil on the crank snout, then get the oven mitts and run the damper over to your engine and get crackin' on it.

You look pretty close. Here's one on an engine I pulled last week with a cast aluminum cover.


'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 11th, 10, 08:56 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Harmonic balancer help!!

Thanks guys, I knew it didn't seem close enough, its been 15 years since my last engine build and something didn't look right. Well I know I messed one think up I didn't put any oil on the crank snout. I did put sealant on it. Ok, dumb question, how can I pull the cover off with the balancer on, when the cover is mounted with allen screws, my torque wrench won't fit in there again, or do I just pull it off, mount the harmonic to see how far away i need to be, pull harmonic back off and remount cover?

Crap, nothing is as easy as it seems to be. Thanks guys. Been hunting all over internet for info on this, tons of pics, but no "hey thisi show you do it an this is how far you should be away."
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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 11th, 10, 09:02 PM
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Steiner
 
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Re: Harmonic balancer help!!

Pull the damper back off, then:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steiner View Post

To make it easier to find out where you need to go, get yourself a piece of coat hanger or wire. Stick it against the crank gear and use a Sharpie to mark it at the front of the timing cover. Then transfer the mark over to the damper snout so you'll be able to tell that you're bottomed out on the gear, not just bound up.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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'02 Z/28 vert-stock-sold and totaled
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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 11th, 10, 09:02 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Harmonic balancer help!!

Ok, another stupid question and I know there is no such thing but since being out of the loop for 15 years has made my mind dormant on engine building.

I had the shortblock professionally build, balanced, blueprinted, and cam degreed I have two other issues bothering me.

I put a gear drive on, which the engine buildinger, who is very reputible, installed. However, I noticed when installing my timing cover that the idler gear on the right side if your facing the block doesn't touch the block, its got about a 1/4" to 1/2" clearance. The left side touches. Now if you pull it out, push cover on, the right side has its .050 clearance, but it bothers me the other side doesn't touch. I was told not to worry about it since the idler gear will actually run up against the time cover and not the block, but it seems this could cause gear damage to me.

My second issue is head gasket. I have a set of pro comp aluminum heads and a cast iron block. I have heard three different suggestions on head gasket. First was just run the fel pro gasket that came with my gasket kit, second was use a cometic gasket, and the last were from both jegs and summit which jegs tech said use a felpro 1003 gasket and summits tech said use a felpro 1004 gasket WTF? both were different size bores on the gaskets too.
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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 11th, 10, 09:03 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Harmonic balancer help!!

Thanks Steiner, guess a little more work and elbow grease is better to get it right than just guessing.
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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 11th, 10, 09:07 PM
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Re: Harmonic balancer help!!

Sealant! What do you mean?

You now need to get yourself a balancer puller under 20.00 and remove it!

What brand is the balancer? What is the part # on it also?

67 RSSS Van Nuys, 4th week Sept,1966
ps,tilt,headrest,spd warn,pw,am/fm,delux int,
remote mirror,rear defrost,tint glass.etc...
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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 11th, 10, 09:17 PM
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Steiner
 
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Re: Harmonic balancer help!!

I couldn't tell you about the gear drive. I pulled the one off my engine and put on a double roller.

For the head gaskets, both of those part numbers look too large for a standard bore 350. You really shouldn't need one any larger than 4.100". However, due to core shift you're not always guaranteed that the gasket bore will clear both the cylinder and cylinder head chamber. Usually the head manufacturer will recommend the gasket size....

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft

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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 11th, 10, 09:31 PM
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Al
 
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Re: Harmonic balancer help!!

One pretty easy way to check if your balancer is on all of the way is to bolt up the crank pulley and see if it lines up with the WP pulley. I'm with JimM in that I've read many threads about the aftermarket balancers requiring a light hone job for the proper interference fit.

I like Steiner's story stick idea also.

Chris - it's a good idea to put some RTV sealant in the key slot in the balancer to keep oil from sneaking past.


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post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 11th, 10, 10:14 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Harmonic balancer help!!

Thanks guys, yeah I read several articles and my engine builder suggested putting a small bead of sealant inside the harmonic to keep any oil from sneaking out.

The balancer is a 6 1/4" Cat Harmonic Balancer, its SFI approved. Got it from JW Race parts in Iowa.

Well gonna give all this a try tommorrow guys, will let you know what happens.

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post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 11th, 10, 11:32 PM
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Re: Harmonic balancer help!!

Thank you Al for clearing that up as i had another picture in my mind! To Ugly to even suggest.

As has been mentioned aftermarket Dampners can have fitment issues and may require honning . ATI dampners are famous for this. You could always try heating it up at 225 degrees in the oven prior to trying the honning process and see if it gives you the necessary fitment?

67 RSSS Van Nuys, 4th week Sept,1966
ps,tilt,headrest,spd warn,pw,am/fm,delux int,
remote mirror,rear defrost,tint glass.etc...
TKO 600 Extreme,12bolt 3:73 gears.
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post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 10, 04:39 AM
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Re: Harmonic balancer help!!

Try to put the water pump and and pulleys and see if they line up - my aftermarket balancer looked like it was too far out also, but the shop that did the lower end installed it - when I hung the pump and pulleys everything lined up fine so it has to be on all the way.

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post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 10, 05:25 AM
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Bill
 
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Re: Harmonic balancer help!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimM View Post

check the id of the balancer vs the od of the crank. you want a couple thou clearance.

then hone the id of the balancer until it slides right on with the tool and pulls right off with the puller.

I've used a flap sander to hone them, get a couple at home depot, the steel is pretty hard, you'll wear em out quick.

Jim, and everyone else .....

This is not very good advice at all. The proper press fit on a Small Block damper is .0007" - .001" This is not something that you can tell by "feel" nor should it be adjusted using a flap wheel If you want to do it correctly you need to measure the end of the crankshaft with a micrometer, then using the same micrometer, set up a very accurate bore gauge like the one on a Sunnen rod hone and measure the press fit. You need a bore gauge that measures in tenths of thousanths ( .0001" ) If it needs to be honed, it should be done on a rod hone or similar machine that can keep the bore straight and round.

Bill Koustenis
Owner
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
1971 Chevelle "Heavy Chevy" original owner


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post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 10, 06:00 AM
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Ron
 
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Re: Harmonic balancer help!!

I agree most after market Dampers have Ramps that are just to tight and will jam piling the Cylinder against the end of the Crank Snout with Burrs - Especially if not started accurately and will more then likely break the installation tool.

I've learned that if the Installation Bolt becomes suspiciously tough to turn it doesn't take much to snap the bolt. At this point I remove the Damper and Hone the1st Inch or so with a Brake Cylinder Hone and Grease it well on my next attempt.

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